# Deneuve wears fur?



## pucci (Feb 6, 2006)

_Fur fan Deneuve takes a faux pass

Fur-bearing movie star Catherine Deneuve won't be cowed by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

"Before you ask, it is real fur," the warmly dressed French icon revealed the other night at a Grand Classics screening of her 1998 film "Place Vendome." "I can promise you that I have never worn fake fur and I never will. These people PETA - who go around throwing things at people - are ridiculous. I don't agree with people being told what they can and can't do. And for me, there are more important things in the world to get upset about."

PETA President Ingrid Newkirk isn't a fan. "Perhaps Ms. Deneuve should change her name to De-vieux," Newkirk hissed, using the French word for "old," "since she thinks in a very old-fashioned way that animals are nothing more than objects waiting to be made into movie stars' coats." She added that PETA has sent videos to the 62-year-old Deneuve "that would make most women weep."

Meow._

I was just wondering how some other ladies felt about this? I know MAC's stance on animal welfare is quite satisfactory to me, which is another reason I  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 it so. I guess I am a little disappointed they would market a woman who openly wears fur. What does everyone else think? (I hope this is in the right section).


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## samtaro (Feb 6, 2006)

I have no problem with it, really.  It's just not one of my pet peeves.


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## karen (Feb 6, 2006)

It doesn't bother me, really. I don't personally wear fur, but I do wear leather.
It would hypocritical for me to say one is okay and one isn't.


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## Corvs Queen (Feb 6, 2006)

You make a valid point and based on your post I refuse to buy anything from the CD Icon line.


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## amandamakeup (Feb 6, 2006)

I have to say the same thing, I wear leather, I have alot of leather jackets, I wear leather shoes, and I eat meat. 
I know its wrong to kill animals, but I would be a hippocrite to say anything bad about it.


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## theleopardcake (Feb 6, 2006)

I don't really have a problem with wearing fur, although I understand where PETA is coming from. However, I also think it's a bit immature of the organization to be harrassing women who choose to wear fur.


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## aziajs (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *theleopardcake* 
_I don't really have a problem with wearing fur, although I understand where PETA is coming from. However, I also think it's a bit immature of the organization to be harrassing women who choose to wear fur._

 
I agree with you.  I have seen some of those PETA videos and the treatment of animals is wrong.  But at the same time I eat meat and wear leather shoes and accessories.  But I also think that the tactics PETA uses are too much sometimes.  My mom wear fur and she said she wishes someone would try to throw paint on her!


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## Corvs Queen (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *theleopardcake* 
_ However, I also think it's a bit immature of the organization to be harrassing women who choose to wear fur._

 
Someone has to speak up for the animals. They can't do it themselves and for sure, if someone was to wear a fur coat made of puppies you would most likely have a problem with it but why are their different cercumstances for different creatures? Why is ones life more valuble than anothers? Just a little food for thought.


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## afterglow (Feb 6, 2006)

I think it's interesting that MAC would feature her, when they're against animal testing.  Or maybe I have it wrong, and they not against it, but just don't do animal testing.  But it doesn't really bother me, because like most people here, I eat meat all the time, and  yeah, I have leather bags and shoes.  I just think it's funny because they featured Pamela Anderson for Viva Glam V, who is a rep of PETA, and then now they also have Catherine Deneuve who obviously has opposing views on the subject matter.


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## exodus (Feb 6, 2006)

I have a very limited knowledge on how fur products are made compared to leather/meat products. The major difference that I know of is that most fur products are made from baby animals (their fur is much softer) and they are killed in an extremely inhumane manner so that their fur would be in tip top condition. Whereas cows, chickens etc are killed quickly and (supposedly) painlessly for their meat and leather is generally a by-product of the process. I might be completely off the mark though, and if I am please do correct me.


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## user4 (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *amandamakeup* 
_I have to say the same thing, I wear leather, I have alot of leather jackets, I wear leather shoes, and I eat meat. 
I know its wrong to kill animals, but I would be a hippocrite to say anything bad about it._

 
u know i never really looked at it that way... except that things like mink are used solely to make fur coats and they use like dozens of minks for one fur coat... and the rest is garbage... at least the meat i eat is used to feed people and the remainder or the cow is used to make clothing... mink anyone? i dont, however, see a HUGE problem with it. i would never buy a fur coat, i think it's cruel (and not very nice looking imho) but i cant really go screaming at someone who choses to.


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## shriekingviolet (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *afterglow* 
_I think it's interesting that MAC would feature her, when they're against animal testing.  Or maybe I have it wrong, and they not against it, but just don't do animal testing._

 
Maybe it's because they think there's a difference?  I know I do, as do many of the nonvegetarians out there who find animal testing cruel.  It's one thing to kill an animal quickly so you can eat its flesh or use its fur and hide, it's another to torture it to death or other injury over and over again to test the safety of a luxury item.  Not to say that people can't feel both are wrong, but to many of us giving a quick death to an animal is hardly the same thing as (say) dropping nail polish on a bunny's eye over and over again and recording the results, and then testing another bunny to see if the same thing happens.

There are plenty of good ethical cases to be made against fur, but I don't think it's an identical issue so stances on each can differ.


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## REYNALD0C (Feb 6, 2006)

i love fur and mac.. i cant do anything about it =[


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## MeganGMcD (Feb 6, 2006)

*missing a word*

I think it's interesting that people riot against fur but still are OK with the buying Diamonds. If you knew the loss and suffering of human lives diamond costs would you protest people who chose to wear diamonds?
I just find it crazy that people will lay down their lives for mink yet still support an industry that supports Genocidal warloard and Al Qaeda.


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## pumpkincat210 (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *REYNALD0C* 
_i love fur and mac.. i cant do anything about it =[_

 
lol, me too.


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## pucci (Feb 6, 2006)

I wonder if they invited Pammy to the launch! I think she'd have a thing or two to say to Catherine!
For what it's worth I loved KFC as well, and drool everytime I walk past, but I still haven't eaten meat for 4 years.


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## pucci (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *MeganGMcD* 
_I think it's interesting that people riot against fur but still are OK with the buying Diamonds. If you knew the loss and suffering of human lives diamond costs would you protest people who chose to wear diamonds?
I just find it crazy that people will lay down their lives for mink yet still support an industry that supports Genocidal warloard and Al Qaeda._

 
Some people have different goals, not everyone can save everything/one from mistreatment. I'm sure there are people out there who protest against diamonds. Who has been rioting over mink? Also, Australia is fighting the war against Al Qaeda (terror), not the war against Mink wearers. People are able to disagree with many things at once. Being anti fur does not make you pro-diamond, does it?


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## shriekingviolet (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *pucci* 
_Being anti fur does not make you pro-diamond, does it?_

 
I don't think she was making _that_ statement, I think she was saying that anti-fur movements have much more traction in our culture than the anti-diamond.  I happen to agree with her on that one.  People wearing fur always seem to stir up comments, while the abuses of the diamond industry aren't nearly as well known but as just as bad if not worse, so you didn't see many people harassing diamand wearers.  There wasn't much moral uprising against the bling trend that I can recall.  I personally wouldn't wear one, unless I knew for a fact it was either lab created or came from Canada with the Polar Ice company.  Otherwise, it's likely a DeBeers diamond, so who knows if the one you're buying came from Australia or somewhere like Tanzania or Sierra Leone?

But then that's just me.  I've so many pictures of African kids in mining areas with limbs cut off to make examples out of them, that I can't not cry when those stupid "Diamonds Are Forever" commercials come on TV.


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## Hawkeye (Feb 6, 2006)

I dont mind people who takes a stand against fur. I personally wouldnt wear it unless it was a life or death situation. Someone does have to give a voice to other species but theres a time and place and a WAY to do it that is much more effective. 

HOWEVER, I personally do not like PeTA in any sense of what they are. They are an extreamist group that values the life of a rabbit over a human. I find them very fanatical and I am usually offended by half the stuff they bring out (the holocost anybody? The Slavery issue? They actually compare ANIMALS to this!)

I personally believe that animals have rights and they shouldn't be put up to cruel and unusual deaths or anything of that nature. However these same people that throw such fits about cruelty are also the same ones who say that its OK for an animal to be euthenized. But I thought they didnt want them to die in the first place?

Personally, I have to agree with Catherine on this one. I mean I cannot respect a group of people who try to force people to believe what they believe. I can't do it. I can't respect people who will dress up like slaughtered cows in public in front of children who are very impressionable, who resort to violence and throwing eggs and such at people (yet these are the same people who interestingly enough will tell you that the war in iraq is bad and violence is not the answer), and I cannot respect an organization who would even think to consider and COMPARE the civil rights movement to animal cruelty or the holocost. 

OK now that my rant about Peta and how I find it a completely useless organization because it does more harm then good...why did mac choose her? Well it's kind of like this, just because they associate with somebody who does something doesnt mean they themselves promote it. EX: I am very conservative but my best friend is very liberal. Just because I hang out with her I love her family doesn't change what my values are. Those are her values not mine. But we still respect each other. They are two different entities with a mutual respect for one another. 

Now I've read someone wanted to know why a little animals life is less valuable then anothers (ie: A rat versus a cat) this is the way the people at PeTA think (and I was a former member and I'm so glad I stopped-but I SHOULD tell you that I believe all life should be respected)..... 

There is no differentiation between the life of an animal and the life of a human (that's how the PeTA folks think). For example: They are actually WILLING to kill a human for an animal (in the most extreame cases). Now no life among the animal kingdom should be differentiated (and it isn't in their mind) yet here's the thing: If it weren't for some of the animals (and this kills me to write it but I will to put it in more perspective) that have died due to scientific studies-we would not have a lot of the medicine that we have to help cure people. How many more people would die due to something like small pox? Or Polio? Or TB? 

At this point you have to weigh the perspectives. Which would be the most beneficial? I guess I'm just annoyed that people are sometimes so close minded saying: Well just because so and so wears fur I dont like them and wont be buying stuff from them. Thats just as silly as me saying, " Well just because a lot of hollywood stars are against George W. Bush I'm not going to watch their movies!"  It's silly and it's close minded. You have to look at it from every perspective to make a fair and balanced decision. 

And it gets even sillier when people are like in a position where they are on their death bed and they have the choice to take a drug that has been proven time and time and time again to heal whatever sickness it is (lets say pneumonia) and this drug has been tested on animals. You have the choice to take it and it will cure you you can live another 60-70 years whatever but you decided you won't take this drug because it was tested on animals. You refuse to take a medicine that can cure your pneumonia because you dont like the fact it was tested on animals. Then you get worse and worse and you refuse to take the drug and then you die. (theoretically of course)

I mean I think thats what frustraites me the most about these animal activists. MANY (not all) will do the above. They would rather die and cut their own lives short for the lives of some rats. It just irritates me. 

And you know I am against animal testing in the cosmetic world because I think there are other ways now with modern technology. 

Now I know a bunch of people will hate me for this post but oh well, if people can get upset over this I can get upset over Peta 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





OK now I'm off my soap box. Thank you for allowing me to lecture


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## Hawkeye (Feb 6, 2006)

One more thing-Shrinking Violet-I actually had the opprotunity to go to South Africa a few years back. I saw some of those kids...its heart wrenching.


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## theleopardcake (Feb 6, 2006)

i completely agree with everything that "youbeabitch" said. hahaha your username makes me  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 i love you!


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## Classic Beauty (Feb 6, 2006)

Just to get this out, "these are my confessions"

I'm a vegetarian, but in no way shape or form support PETA.
Personally, I think people wearing mink coats is not right.  I mean, minks are cute.  Let them live and be cute.  

But being the hypocrit I am, I buy leather shoes and purses.  I mean, people aren't going to stop eating meat completely, so I should just make that poor cow more useful.

Oh jesus, that sounds bad. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm the worst vegetarian ever!


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## lah_knee (Feb 6, 2006)

the anti-diamond stance isnt as blown up as anti-fur because there are more animal right activists. i like meat... i dont like fur, because i dont see a point... i do like diamonds because honestly, being in our society it is thrown at us at a young age that it is beautiful. and i got caught up in that. i dont think anything will change my mind on that just like people who think its wrong to eat meat cant change mine either. i dont know if that makes me insensitive or wrong, but thats just how i think.

now imo, catherine comes off to be a snobby french bitch. but that is my opinion


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## pucci (Feb 7, 2006)

Hey all thanks for your interesting responses.
I guess I just want to say this is about MAC and what they stand for and Catherine Deneuve. Nothing to do with Peta. Also I think not buying something from this collection because of your beleifs is not silly, because it is only make up, not a life saving drug.


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## Hawkeye (Feb 7, 2006)

Just a question: but should I start changing the name of french fries to freedom fries just because I don't like the French stance on the Iraqi War? 

I mean this is the point I'm driving home. This has nothing to do with politics or with the war-it's the point I'm trying to point out.  I respect beliefs about it but I was responding more to the actual article you posted to regarding PeTA even bring this about. And you know-in all actuality because it really does seem so silly to me (ie: as you can tell from the absurdity of the posed question) can you explain to me why many feel this way? And I'm not going to make fun of you or anything I promise! (i really am not that way) I just really want to be able to see your point of view because hopefully you see mine and if I can see yours then maybe I'll be a bit more understanding =)


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## velvet (Feb 7, 2006)

i hate peta too.  they can eat me.  they are not who they claim to be.  they are extremist and they are using good people who want to help animals by taking their money.they are appealing to the part of all of us that wants to help animals but  they are all politics, and have very little to do with animals.  they pick and chose

if CD wants to wear fur ..whatever.  its not my favorite thing in the world.  and seeing it kinda makes me want to barf, but its her choice.  i think its silly to boycott her for that reason only.


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## FemmeNoir (Feb 7, 2006)

Now I'm really glad that I didn't buy anything from this Icon collection.


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## pucci (Feb 7, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *youbeabitch* 
_Just a question: but should I start changing the name of french fries to freedom fries just because I don't like the French stance on the Iraqi War? 

I mean this is the point I'm driving home. This has nothing to do with politics or with the war-it's the point I'm trying to point out.  I respect beliefs about it but I was responding more to the actual article you posted to regarding PeTA even bring this about. And you know-in all actuality because it really does seem so silly to me (ie: as you can tell from the absurdity of the posed question) can you explain to me why many feel this way? And I'm not going to make fun of you or anything I promise! (i really am not that way) I just really want to be able to see your point of view because hopefully you see mine and if I can see yours then maybe I'll be a bit more understanding =)_

 
Why do so many people feel so anti fur?
I think it's easy! It's just so unneccesery (I'm talking in the fashion sence). It is common knowledge that the animals are born to lead a short torture filled life! I think if fur was one of few fibres humans could use to keep warm, the attitude would be totally different. Personally I am against killing any animal (that wouldn't be in direct threat to my life). And you can always go fake! Real fur is just flashy and showy, a status symbol for those who want to know how much money they have. I wont buy anything that is marketed by someone who is so pretentious and uncaring! I'd love to see more people as icon's that care about the feelings of the consumers they are trying to sell to. To me, what she did was wave a red flag to a bull. She wanted to draw attention to herself. Of course groups like Peta would react to such a comment. She probably just wanted more attention, I'd never heard of her before MAC released her collection so I guess she'd better keep up with the naff outbursts. I'm sorry, but I lost respect for her, as  a woman in her position to be so commercial and ignorant.


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## ishtarchick (Feb 7, 2006)

//EDIT// thanks for moving this to the chatter board, i think it is much more appropiate here. =)

not to offend anyone but











 come on, does all this drama even belong in the MAC chat board?


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## shriekingviolet (Feb 7, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *pucci* 
_She probably just wanted more attention, I'd never heard of her before MAC released her collection so I guess she'd better keep up with the naff outbursts. I'm sorry, but I lost respect for her, as  a woman in her position to be so commercial and ignorant._

 
Well how much respect could you have had for her if you never knew who she was anyway, and thus knowing so little about her, think you can guess her attentions?  I'm not questioning your disgust with her love for fur, but that statement is stupid.  Catherine Denevue is an internationally critically acclaimed actress, and as she's French, most of her films are (what we call) foreign.  She doesn't need to earn herself attention, she's a grown woman with the respect of many and at least 75 films behind her.

And ignorant?  No.  Callous, maybe.  Not compassionate to animal right, fine.  But ignorant?  What exactly is she ignorant about?  She just doesn't agree with your views or the ones of PETA.


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## blueyedlady87 (Feb 7, 2006)

I had never heard of catherine Denuvue before this collection either. (And trust me, I'm a big fan of older movies) But maybe thats because foreign films aren't my thing. So it wouldn't be right for me to say that I dislike her as a person, but her statement certainly sounded cocky and thoughtless to me. I will eat meat occasionally but I will not wear fur. I personally can't wear it when I know a poor, cute animal has died for it. However, killing a pig for bacon, I see no harm. Double standard? Maybe. In the pre-historic days people had to kill animlas for food and clothes. Nowadays we certainly don't need to kill them for clothes. But for food I can see, since it is so much work to get enough protein otherways (and in most cases it tastes awful). Everyone has different opinions, thats just me.


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## blueyedlady87 (Feb 7, 2006)

On a side note, animals are still going to get killed regardless of one persons or even 1 million persons beliefs. I think vegitarianism or anti-fur or whatever has to be a personal thing. I don't think anyones beliefs should be forced on others. Thats why I disagree with PETAs policies.


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## Hawkeye (Feb 7, 2006)

Pucci, those are valid points. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I respect your opinion and we can both agree that wearing fur is bad. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




But Shrieking violet also makes some valid points that since you said you never heard of her you are making quite a harsh judgement especially when you say you lost respect for her-if you didnt know how did you have any respect for her in the first place? hehe 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




HOWEVER, I can also say, I wasn't sure who she was until MAC came out with her this time around and I know she's well known. I can honestly say that I don't respect for her, NOT because of this stance but only because she's honestly not that important to me (SORRY Ladies who adore her!!!) but then again I love Paul McCartney but to many here some have never heard of him and some just dont care who he is. 

I think can understand your anger towards her words you saw on print.


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## Butterfly Princess (Feb 7, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *sxychika1014* 
_u know i never really looked at it that way... except that things like mink are used solely to make fur coats and they use like dozens of minks for one fur coat... and the rest is garbage... at least the meat i eat is used to feed people and the remainder or the cow is used to make clothing... mink anyone? i dont, however, see a HUGE problem with it. i would never buy a fur coat, i think it's cruel (and not very nice looking imho) but i cant really go screaming at someone who choses to._

 
Thats eactly how I feel.


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## Melody (Feb 7, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *barbie_doll_713* 
_On a side note, animals are still going to get killed regardless of one persons or even 1 million persons beliefs. I think vegitarianism or anti-fur or whatever has to be a personal thing. I don't think anyones beliefs should be forced on others. Thats why I disagree with PETAs policies._

 
The beauty of this country is that people in numbers, with opinions work to get things changed. So with your thinking, we should all give up our hopes of what we want to get accomplished and just say ah fuck it, they're still gonna get killed. Even a little difference is a difference.


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## jenjunsan (Feb 7, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Melody* 
_The beauty of this country is that people in numbers, with opinions work to get things changed. So with your thinking, we should all give up our hopes of what we want to get accomplished and just say ah fuck it, they're still gonna get killed. Even a little difference is a difference._

 
Thanks Melody, I couldn't have stated it better.  I live in Louisiana where hunting is a big thing.  I have to see these picture of my nephew with these beautiful deer he has killed and people laugh when I get sick to my stomach.  I fully realize I cannot change everyone around me (including my husband) but my daughter is sooo like me and cries everytime we see an animal killed.  My daughter does eat some meat and my husband tries to use that as an argument, but my thing with the deer hunting here is that there are several times a year that I have heard that they "hit" a deer but then when they go to get it, all they find is blood and no deer.  So you have a deer out there suffering in pain and/or bleeding to death.  That just rips my heart out.  Luckily, I am from Lousiana, just south of New Orleans (you know good ole Maire Laveau).  My husband only likes to rabbit hunt.  Every time he leaves me and my daughter put the "gris gris" on him.  Since we have started doing this, he is yet to kill a rabbit.  Hey, it might just be folk lore, but it has worked so far....never underestimate a cajun.....LOL


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## jenjunsan (Feb 7, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *aziajs* 
_I agree with you.  I have seen some of those PETA videos and the treatment of animals is wrong.  But at the same time I eat meat and wear leather shoes and accessories.  But I also think that the tactics PETA uses are too much sometimes.  My mom wear fur and she said she wishes someone would try to throw paint on her!_

 
Okay I am going to say this and don't get mad....BUT where does she live?  I'd LOVE to try!


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## jenjunsan (Feb 7, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Corv's Queen* 
_Someone has to speak up for the animals. They can't do it themselves and for sure, if someone was to wear a fur coat made of puppies you would most likely have a problem with it but why are their different cercumstances for different creatures? Why is ones life more valuble than anothers? Just a little food for thought._

 
I just absolutely LOVE the way you think!


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## taygalchi (Feb 7, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *shriekingviolet* 
_But then that's just me.  I've so many pictures of African kids in mining areas with limbs cut off to make examples out of them, that I can't not cry when those stupid "Diamonds Are Forever" commercials come on TV._

 
Hear hear! I feel like I'm wearing human blood if I wear diamonds from South African mines. ::shudder::

Back on topic: I used to not care if someone wore fur, but now I'm in my 30s and have had a job that involved interaction w/all types of animals - I see that they all have personalities. The way they die when they are killed strictly for fur is *unbelievable*. I can't support anyone who views living creatures so nonchalantly. Your opinion may differ. Vote with your wallet and I'll vote with mine. And I'll write a letter to MAC explaining why I voted the way I did.


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## jenjunsan (Feb 7, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *MeganGMcD* 
_I think it's interesting that people riot against fur but still are OK with the buying Diamonds. If you knew the loss and suffering of human lives diamond costs would you protest people who chose to wear diamonds?
I just find it crazy that people will lay down their lives for mink yet still support an industry that supports Genocidal warloard and Al Qaeda._

 
Why do you assume that someone defending animals defends Genocidal warloard and Al Qaeda?  I support neither.  As far as your argument about diamond, the men who harvest them have a choice.  The CHOOSE to do that as a job. The animals do not CHOOSE to sacrafice their life!  How can you even compare the two? That is just rediculous!


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## jenjunsan (Feb 7, 2006)

youbeabitch said:
			
		

> At this point you have to weigh the perspectives. Which would be the most beneficial? I guess I'm just annoyed that people are sometimes so close minded saying: Well just because so and so wears fur I dont like them and wont be buying stuff from them. Thats just as silly as me saying, " Well just because a lot of hollywood stars are against George W. Bush I'm not going to watch their movies!"  It's silly and it's close minded. You have to look at it from every perspective to make a fair and balanced decision.
> 
> Wooh!  I could so rail on GWB at this point, but I am going to keep it in check.....after all...he might be listening....ah hell.....I HATE that SOB....choke on that Bush!


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## Hawkeye (Feb 7, 2006)

So you can see how silly that statement is? but like I said it's not about politics because it's 2 totally seperate entities (I was just using that to drive a point about how absurd some of these statements can be)

Sometimes I really wonder if people actually sit there and look at all perspectives before making such statements. I mean you sit and you listen to these people-with politics, with makeup with everything and you wonder. I mean see as soon as I threw up GWB I got a reaction from SOMEONE and that's what a lot of people are looking for with this whole "I'm not going to buy anything or whatever from this collection or whatever thing a person is apart of" to me. It's no different then me saying (even though I'm conservative) that because my best friend is liberal I don't want anything to do with her! But if you look at it, we're both good people and we get along fine. I mean that's whats so hard for me-and the only way I can express it is through politics because that's another thing people are VERY opinionated about but where a lot of people can see the absurdity of some of these statements. 

Where in this situation with CD and MAC you have 2 different entities, a famous person and a makeup line both have their faults. CD likes to wear fur and MAC makes crappy foundation (in my opinion) but regardless they bring out the best of each other. That's how my best friend and I are. I guess I just dont understand how someone could flat out refuse to buy something that has a picture of one person who has a flaw but I'm sure has done a lot more than just bought fur all her life. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





It's a philosophy I will never understand (and I really am trying to!) and I really do appreciate Pucci for being so sweet and trying to explain it to me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I do respect her opinion and I hope I will one day be able to understand it.


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## Hawkeye (Feb 7, 2006)

OK before this gets even further off topic hehehe 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm no help i know this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Instead of the tactics peta uses why don't some of the girls here who feel really strongly about this-other than not buying the collection (which again we wont go there) why dont you all write letters of disapproval to mac? I mean I dunno that's what I would do if I felt that strongly about something. *shrugs*


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## jenjunsan (Feb 7, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *youbeabitch* 
_
Sometimes I really wonder if people actually sit there and look at all perspectives before making such statements. I mean you sit and you listen to these people-with politics, with makeup with everything and you wonder. I mean see as soon as I threw up GWB I got a reaction from SOMEONE and that's what a lot of people are looking for with this whole "I'm not going to buy anything or whatever from this collection or whatever thing a person is apart of" to me. It's no different then me saying (even though I'm conservative) that because my best friend is liberal I don't want anything to do with her! But if you look at it, we're both good people and we get along fine. I mean that's whats so hard for me-and the only way I can express it is through politics because that's another thing people are VERY opinionated about but where a lot of people can see the absurdity of some of these statements. _

 
Okay, see...if only congress could talk it out like us.. BUT you were the one who brought up politics and yes you got a rise from ME.  I understand your point that you can be friends with someone who has different political views than you and I am also the same way.  The majority of my friends are republicans, and I still love them,  but that doesn't mean I have to agree with them.  But that in no way has anything to do with the subject at hand.  NO point of view is absurb...we live in the USA and we have the right to believe what we want. (Not that you stated otherwise).  However, I personally do not agree with the killing or wearing of animals, so it is my choice not to buy from this line and I have not.


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## Pushpa (Feb 7, 2006)

i have no problem with ppl wearing fur and i personaly think organizations like PETA are extreme and the just hurt their cause i can't stand these ppl...i don't agree with animal testing and what not but when it is all said and done i won't stop buying leather and i am hindu for gosh sake...i just like fur leather and chicken i can't help it


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## Hawkeye (Feb 7, 2006)

Jenjunson-
LOL Congress is a joke. You gotta wonder about those folks up there. They can't talk anything out! ROFLMAO. OK thanks for that I needed to laugh today-too many tests to worry about over here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 OK yes I did bring up politics because this is a very sensitive topic that is very familiar (if you will) to politics/abortion/religion anything. It's something people feel strongly about or they just dont give a rip and sometimes people (in my opinion) dont see it unless they see something that may be familiar to them....ok whatever...we all get the point now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




OK back to the post- see you understand what I'm trying to get at. That's a good thing. And it's true no opinion is absurd (though I do think some statements are but then again-that just what makes life fun to laugh at right? hehe sorry its 3 AM) 

And as with Pucci (by the way I love that name it's a fun name 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 it's fun to type) I still don't understand it but I do respect that you don't want to buy from the line for personal moral and ethical reasons 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 it'll just be one of those things we can shake hands and say we can agree to disagree with that. (however-i can't blame you but not because of the fur thing-I just didnt like the colors)


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## Corvs Queen (Feb 7, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *jenjunsan* 
_Why do you assume that someone defending animals defends Genocidal warloard and Al Qaeda?  I support neither.  As far as your argument about diamond, the men who harvest them have a choice.  The CHOOSE to do that as a job. The animals do not CHOOSE to sacrafice their life!  How can you even compare the two? That is just rediculous!_

 
Word.  8)


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## Pimptress (Feb 7, 2006)

i would wrap myself in a fur coat while eating a large steak in leather pants

eating other animals for food is human nature


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## Pimptress (Feb 7, 2006)

in my humble opinion of course

and my ancestors'!!!!!!!


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## Corvs Queen (Feb 7, 2006)

Eating? Yes, skinning alive just to wear and be "in fashion"? A big HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Think of it this way, what if we were not at the top of the food chain. What if we were thought of as lions are tought of and they were thought of as humans. Are telling me that it would still be satisfactory if the lion wanted to skin our babies to make rugs and coats?


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## pucci (Feb 7, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Pimptress* 
_i would wrap myself in a fur coat while eating a large steak in leather pants

eating other animals for food is human nature_

 
But we also have the intellegence to survive without doing so.

Thankyou everyone for your great arguments, you are way more eloquent than me!
I guess I meant CD lost any potential of respect from me (I'm sure she'll be heart-broken  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


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## Hawkeye (Feb 7, 2006)

I thought I heard her sobbing in the back room  

hehehe


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## shriekingviolet (Feb 7, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *jenjunsan* 
_As far as your argument about diamond, the men who harvest them have a choice.  The CHOOSE to do that as a job. The animals do not CHOOSE to sacrafice their life!  How can you even compare the two? That is just rediculous!_

 
Choose to do that job huh?  First of all, do you think it's only the people working in the mines that are suffering because of the diamond industry?  They're not.  It's everyone around them.  And as for choice, I think in most cases, it's a choice between having a job and not having a job, not "I'm choosing to mine rather than to work on a farm."  Diamonds are mined in some of the poorest areas of the world, it's not a choice.  No one chooses to be paid pennies a day to work in terrible conditions.  And that's _if_ they get paid.  Slavery is not dead all over the word, and diamonds have real connections to present day slavery. Many of the jobs of polishing diamonds are filled by many children sold into bondage to pay off the debts of their parents or children conscripted by diamond barons.    Is that a choice?

People can be helpless too.  Animals are far from the only ones subject to exploitation and they're not the only ones who have few people speaking up for their rights.  People can be forced either by physical means, intimidation or economic means.  Work or die shouldn't be considered much more of a choice than what a mink grown to make a coat has.  At the very least, they don't starve the minks.

I'm not saying that one is necessarily worse than the other or that there's anything wrong with having animal welfare in the fashion industry be your pet cause over human rights violations for fashion, but I think it's ignorant and callous to write off what people can go through as less, chosen and therefore justifiable.   Especially when the "choice" we enjoy in western society isn't enjoyed by a huge chunk of the world.  And I don't think the issue here is whether or not you support diamonds, it's that people seem to get less outraged by the idea of where them.  Which is very sad.


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## Pimptress (Feb 8, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *pucci* 
_But we also have the intellegence to survive without doing so.

Thankyou everyone for your great arguments, you are way more eloquent than me!
I guess I meant CD lost any potential of respect from me (I'm sure she'll be heart-broken  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )_

 

speak for yourself! i'd rather die than give up cheeseburgers for life! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the only reason i'd ever give up eating meat is if i wanted to lose a significant amount of weight, very quickly. because a lot of meat is fattening, fo shizzle, and the vegetarian diet would cause me to become more or less anorexic. 

i'm not pro veganism and i'm not pro religion and i'm not pro life so that basically means that a lot of very opinionated people very much dislike my opinions on things, so i generally just say one liners about the subject and let it at that. so i'll let it at this. i don't own fur, but i would, for warmth not fashion, yet i'd probably sell it if it was handed to me because i'd rather have the money. i own leather, which is beautiful and i love. i will never stop eating meat. and the only thing that will ever bother me on this subject is people being judgemental of others based on how they personally feel. personal opinions are just that, personal. leave them personal, don't push it on other people. =/


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## pucci (Feb 8, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *shriekingviolet* 
_Choose to do that job huh?  First of all, do you think it's only the people working in the mines that are suffering because of the diamond industry?  They're not.  It's everyone around them.  And as for choice, I think in most cases, it's a choice between having a job and not having a job, not "I'm choosing to mine rather than to work on a farm."  Diamonds are mined in some of the poorest areas of the world, it's not a choice.  No one chooses to be paid pennies a day to work in terrible conditions.  And that's if they get paid.  Slavery is not dead all over the word, and diamonds have real connections to present day slavery. Many of the jobs of polishing diamonds are filled by many children sold into bondage to pay off the debts of their parents or children conscripted by diamond barons.    Is that a choice?

People can be helpless too.  Animals are far from the only ones subject to exploitation and they're not the only ones who have few people speaking up for their rights.  People can be forced either by physical means, intimidation or economic means.  Work or die shouldn't be considered much more of a choice than what a mink grown to make a coat has.  At the very least, they don't starve the minks.

I'm not saying that one is necessarily worse than the other or that there's anything wrong with having animal welfare in the fashion industry be your pet cause over human rights violations for fashion, but I think it's ignorant and callous to write off what people can go through as less, chosen and therefore justifiable.   Especially when the "choice" we enjoy in western society isn't enjoyed by a huge chunk of the world.  And I don't think the issue here is whether or not you support diamonds, it's that people seem to get less outraged by the idea of where them.  Which is very sad._

 
Do you have any links you could post so I can read about this pleeease


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## pucci (Feb 8, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Pimptress* 
_speak for yourself! i'd rather die than give up cheeseburgers for life! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the only reason i'd ever give up eating meat is if i wanted to lose a significant amount of weight, very quickly. because a lot of meat is fattening, fo shizzle, and the vegetarian diet would cause me to become more or less anorexic. 

i'm not pro veganism and i'm not pro religion and i'm not pro life so that basically means that a lot of very opinionated people very much dislike my opinions on things, so i generally just say one liners about the subject and let it at that. so i'll let it at this. i don't own fur, but i would, for warmth not fashion, yet i'd probably sell it if it was handed to me because i'd rather have the money. i own leather, which is beautiful and i love. i will never stop eating meat. and the only thing that will ever bother me on this subject is people being judgemental of others based on how they personally feel. personal opinions are just that, personal. leave them personal, don't push it on other people. =/_

 
I don't see how discussing it is pushing it on anyone. I think a little debate on these sort of issues is good for you. Especially when the debate is in a forum such as specktra- you can choose to participate or not to, it's not like I'm harrassing you in the street.


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## ruby_soho (Feb 8, 2006)

For the topic of diamonds and miners having a choice, diamond mines in developping countries are staffed by individuals who are living in poverty. Much of the countries that are rich in diamonds were former colonies, natives worked to develop and mine the land and mother countries took much of the benefits. Colonies were often decolonized rapidly, native countries weren't told how to run their country, nothing was implemented to transition from colony to independent state. Political parties changed frequently due to coups, economies basically nose dived because of political leaders pocketing the nations funds, no education or health care. Unstable governments ties into social conflict and civil war, where "blood diamonds" stem from. Parties in civil war would mine the diamonds and illicitly sell them to companies in order to fund their part in a civil war. So clearly workers in these situations do not have a choice. I'm not saying all diamonds originate from these situations, but under the circumstances that it was originally brought up in, these are the conditions of their work. 

 As for fur, I would never wear it. I eat meat, but fur gives me the heebie jeebies to say the least. I can't touch it, it makes me shudder. 
PS: I'm not articulate


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## Pimptress (Feb 8, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *pucci* 
_I don't see how discussing it is pushing it on anyone. I think a little debate on these sort of issues is good for you. Especially when the debate is in a forum such as specktra- you can choose to participate or not to, it's not like I'm harrassing you in the street._

 

hey, you're not harassing me at all. i don't even know what your stance on it is, to be honest with you.. or anyone's, i didn't read this thread that closely.. nor do i really care, because it won't change my life in one way or another depending on how the members of specktra feel.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




i do think it's just silly to boycott mac's CD line because of one of their "models" so to speak chooses to live her life in a certain way. the way she lives her own life isn't endorsed or publicized by mac, so why boycott mac? but hey, to each his or her own.


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## shriekingviolet (Feb 8, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *pucci* 
_Do you have any links you could post so I can read about this pleeease 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 
Sure!  Books are the best source of information (Blood Diamonds and Glitter & Greed are both good titles) of course, but there are a few good pages on the internet to get you started. Here are some links: 

The United Nations' page on Conflict Diamonds (warning here: this page contains on image on the top of the page of a little boy with both of his hands cut off)

Blood Diamonds Are For Never (highly recommended)

Globalpolicy.org's page on Conflict Diamonds

Ten Reasons Why You Should Never Accept A Diamond Ring From Anyone  (reasons 4-10 particularly important, good quick primer with some links for further reading)

Tribe.net on Conflict Diamonds (warning: another picture of a guy with on of his limbs cut off.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

On Diamonds and Slavery

Also I should mention that the movie Lord of War, which was just released on DVD, touches on the issue of conflict diamonds, so is a good primer if you don't feel like reading.  The movie itself isn't about diamonds (but you do see them several times offered as payment and the main character talks about the concept of Conflict Diamonds), but all of the scenes set in Africa (which are both disturbing and heartbreaking) give you a fairly good idea of what is made possible by diamonds and the wars fought over them.  The wars shown couldn't continue the way they do without the diamond trade, something that's been recognized by the UN Security Council.  

Reading about the atrocities related to conflict diamonds are a really terrible and ugly glimpse into the kind of cruelty man can perpetrate against one another, and how the market (i.e. _us_) can encourage such brutality.  What goes on in Africa now is some of the worst mankind has witnessed.  I have a friend who has a morbid fascination with reading accounts of the Holocaust, and she says that reading a UN sponsored report of some of the Sierra Leone blood diamond attrocities is the most nightmare inducing thing she's ever read.  It's truly horrifying beyond description.


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## pumpkincat210 (Feb 8, 2006)

I saw a show about diamonds on A&E it was very sad.  So many people have taken advantage of their diamonds.. and  they are still dirt poor, when they could be rich..


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## mspixieears (Feb 8, 2006)

I'm not saying everyone should go out and buy fur, but in regards to products made of animal skins/hides, when they are made, it is probably better to use them (seeing as the damage is done) rather than to throw them away. I've heard of people only wearing vintage fur for this reason - they refuse to buy new fur and reuse or recycle that which exists.

PETA are a bit whack for me sometimes...though I do feel strongly about the suffering of animals. After reading 'Fast Food Nation' by Eric Schossler, it made me realise that a lot of people make a living from farming and meat manufacturing, and some do this in the most humane way, their animals from when they are born to when they are (humanely) put down do not suffer. Ideally, I think instead of trying to turn everyone against meat eating (this is something I struggle with for health reasons), perhaps animals should just be treated humanely and without pain or suffering, even if they are essentially alive to become available for human consumption. 

I recall reading one of PETA's reports on sheep mulesing (an horrific practice which I can't bear to discuss) and PETA decided, yea, let's boycott Australian wool. Never mind the fact that only 40% of the Australian wool industry participated in this cruel practice. But in boycotting the entire industry, those who do not engage in such animal cruelty are targeted too - how is that fair? And these stats were listed in their OWN report!?

Damn it, I guess issues like this are never going to be black and white. Sometimes it's so hard to decide what to do!


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## d_flawless (Feb 8, 2006)

i don't personally wear fur because i don't agree with it, and what going into getting it made...
BUT, i don't knock others for what they do, i just make sure they know why i don't


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## cyens (Feb 8, 2006)

The truck who deliever your mac rolled over a deer on its way to the store....


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## blueyedlady87 (Feb 9, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Melody* 
_The beauty of this country is that people in numbers, with opinions work to get things changed. So with your thinking, we should all give up our hopes of what we want to get accomplished and just say ah fuck it, they're still gonna get killed. Even a little difference is a difference._

 
I would bet a million dollars that the majority of Americans will never become total vegans. And as we all know in a democracy, majority rules. I wasn't saying one persons' opinion doesn't matter. I was trying to say that someone should become a vegan for personal reasons. Not b/c PETA is using shock and awe tactics to 'win' people over to their cause. It seems to me that PETA goes way too far simply to gain supporters, when in reality we will always eat meat and therefore kill animals. Its a fact.


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## blueyedlady87 (Feb 9, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Corv's Queen* 
_Eating? Yes, skinning alive just to wear and be "in fashion"? A big HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Think of it this way, what if we were not at the top of the food chain. What if we were thought of as lions are tought of and they were thought of as humans. Are telling me that it would still be satisfactory if the lion wanted to skin our babies to make rugs and coats?_

 
Amen! I couldnt have said it better myself. I personally just feel disgusting knowing I'm wearing another animals fur. They need it more than I do!!


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## blueyedlady87 (Feb 9, 2006)

As for the whole diamond issue: We can't save everyone in this world. Perhaps a poor-paying, abusive job is better than none at all in those type of countries. Looking at those kind of situations makes me sooo thankful for America. I loooove diamonds. They are the most beautiful, flawless, sparkly gems, IMO. You know they say, "Diamonds are a girls best friend!" A guy who would never buy me diamonds is a guy I would never be with. While I feel very bad for the poor and suffering in this world, I'm not going to track down where my current and future diamonds are from, and then get rid of them. I don't mean any of that personally, it's just my own opinion.


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## shriekingviolet (Feb 9, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *barbie_doll_713* 
_As for the whole diamond issue: We can't save everyone in this world. Perhaps a poor-paying, abusive job is better than none at all in those type of countries._

 
Did you not understand the slavery, genocide and hacking off limbs part?  I'm sorry, I don't mean to imply this should be everyone issue, but I find it absolutely _appalling_ that someone can understand the horrors of fur and how disgusting it is that we'd wear it and then wave off this issue like it means nothing.  _Trust me_, what this people go through is far worse than being skinned after you've been killed quickly.  Particularly since, in the grand scheme of things, I can think of a lot of practical uses for fur (even though we've been able to create cruelty free alternatives now) and none for diamonds as a part of personal wear.   It's a completely hypocritical view to care about one and write off the other, because it's *the same issue*: the exploitation of living beings who cannot help themselves for luxury items.  Only with fur, the animals get to be fed and live relatively safe lives by comparison until it's time for them to be made into coats, while the people who are exploited for the diamond trade live lives of continual suffering and terror until they meet whatever end awaits them.  

Because really, if you want to use the metaphor Corv's Queen used, in essence, the hides of children and adult people _are_ being taken and worn about because people die to get these to market.  We don't need another species to prey upon us, *we do it ourselves!*


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## velvet (Feb 9, 2006)

great post shriekingviolet!


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## ruby_soho (Feb 9, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *barbie_doll_713* 
_While I feel very bad for the poor and suffering in this world, I'm not going to track down where my current and future diamonds are from, and then get rid of them._

 
 You don't have to get rid of any currents diamonds, it's already too late, like getting rid of fur-the animal's already been skinned. But you have to be an informed consumer and find out the source of these sorts of products. Just like people who believe in animal rights, but still eat meat, find the source of their meat products. Is it free range? Is it from a small, local farm where they treat the animals well? Or is it mass produced, where the animals live in overcrowded pastures and are caged? I don't think you can go full out for one cause, and turn a blind eye to another. If you don't find the source of your products, diamonds for instance, then you could be personally funding a civil war and genocide.


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## Chelly (Feb 9, 2006)

i love diamonds, i love fur, i eat meat, and i looove makeup


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## lovejam (Feb 9, 2006)

Her money, her body, her choice. I think she's a great actress, and a beautiful woman. I'm not about to dislike her based on what kind of coat she chooses to wear. As long as she didn't skin any humans to get that coat, I'm not too upset.


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## Corvs Queen (Feb 9, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *lovejam* 
_ As long as she didn't skin any humans to get that coat, I'm not too upset. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 
Yeah, because we all know that humans are more valuable than any other creature.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




That's so self absorbed and inconsiderate. And just a close minded thing to say. I know that I'll catch hell for this but statements like that* REALLY* piss me off to no end!!!


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## lovejam (Feb 9, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Corv's Queen* 
_Yeah, because we all know that humans are more valuable than any other creature._

 
Well, I do value human welfare above that of animals.

However, it was meant as a tongue-in-cheek comment. But, I suppose I shouldn't have expected people to pick up on that.


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## Pimptress (Feb 10, 2006)

Until the animals start speaking for themselves, ... well then I think it'd be time for me to leave the earth.

Oh yeah, and if it comes down to a lion coming after my babies to make skin-coats, I'll be there with a machetti ready to fight the fight against the lion. Besides, if I sat my baby out in the middle of a field, do you really think the lion is going to respectfully pass it up and think "Oh what a poor little baby, I should just leave it there....." Or even if I were in the middle of a lion field... I'd have a weapon with me. I may be more intelligent and have better means for life, but I am not as strong as a lion. If a lion had more brain power than I did, it'd be a really, really strange world. Luckily, that will never happen, so I don't give a crap.


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## Pimptress (Feb 10, 2006)

P.S. I agree with the people who are saying that at least they are making a difference by making the choices they are making to not eat meat anymore... but just to let you know, I'll always be a person making a difference on the other side, still eating meat. Unless it becomes illegal and punishable by large fine or death, you won't take away my cheeseburgers. Or steaks, chicken breasts, bbq ribs, bacon, turkey club sandwhich, thanksgiving turkey, etc. Mine, all mine.

OH THE POOR VEGETABLES. DONT YOU KNOW THEY ARE LIVING AND HAVE FEELINGS TOO?


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## litlaur (Feb 10, 2006)

I do wear leather and eat meat, and I don't mind people hunting animals that they're going to eat, but fur seems a bit impractical, especially fur from tiny animals to make large coats. It bothers me more when endangered animals are slaughtered for fur, meat, any reason. I don't agree with a lot of practices in the fur trade. However, I'm not going to tell someone (other than my niece and nephew
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) what they should or shouldn't do. It's their choice.


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## pucci (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Pimptress* 
_Oh yeah, and if it comes down to a lion coming after my babies to make skin-coats, I'll be there with a machetti ready to fight the fight against the lion._

 
Are you missing the point completely? I don't think anyone here would put the life of their own child before that of a wild animal. But protecting your life and wearing a fashion object are totally different


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## pucci (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Pimptress* 
_OH THE POOR VEGETABLES. DONT YOU KNOW THEY ARE LIVING AND HAVE FEELINGS TOO?_

 
Yeh, that's really funny. I've never heard that before, ever.  :|


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## Pimptress (Feb 10, 2006)

No pucci, i'm not missing the point. I was responding to something someone else said about what if lions were at the top of the food chain, or whatever.

also, I know you've heard that before. _everyone_ has heard that before. i was being facetious. why can't I be? What if I'm highly offended by vegans? do I not have the right to make playful jests at the other side? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Not trying to make any enemies here, but obviously, not many people have figured out my sarcastic tone. However, maybe I am purposely doing it because i _know_ how judgemental people can be on a subject of this nature. Maybe I am just _daring_ at least one of you to hate me for my choices. Maybe that's just how I argue my point. Maybe it's to make people realize how stupid it is to try to push their views on other people. Or, maybe it's funny to make people squirm and be angry.


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## pucci (Feb 10, 2006)

Glad I'm not vegan- wouldn't want to offend you!


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## Pimptress (Feb 10, 2006)

psht, i'm already offended at the mention of the word.


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## Chelly (Feb 11, 2006)

hey does fish count? because i LOVE that too


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## JesusShaves (Feb 15, 2006)

While i think it is wrong and cruel the way its made and  don't support the 'current' death of animals.  I have two fur coats, which were given to me long ago from an aunt and i adore them. I hate fake fur, its just so tacky, it feels horrible. It's nothing to do with fashion or what fashion dictates.  Its my personal preferance, the warmth and feeling. Nothing comes close to the real thing


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