# An important message - please read!



## Janice (Dec 11, 2013)

Greetings Specktra Netizens!

  It’s the holiday season and with many new MAC collections releasing, the subversive activity that was brought to our attention last month has not abated. In fact, it seems to have intensified to the point I have recieved several PM’s from upset members who can not understand why they are being left out of collection information. 

  Now that I have had time to reflect on the mission of the site, how things have changed over time, how far I am willing to bend my original vision of a intelligent and kind community that freely shares information, and where the best interests of the community at large lie - I have prepared the following announcement. Please understand that I am just as passionate about this as you, and I sincerely hope that you will listen and try to understand where we, the Specktra staff, are coming from.

  To begin, I’d like to share our motto here at Specktra: *Specktra is a cosmetics fan community with discussion open to all cosmetic lines and to all who are interested in cosmetics. We promote a healthy atmosphere comprised of education, diversity, and sharing information freely with each other. *

  Here at Specktra, we have dedicated almost 9 years to ensuring our forums are filled with kindness, respect, and information. The first iteration of the site was the MAC “encyclopedia”, a comprehensive guide to each and every MAC release from the beginning. This spirit of sharing brought other cosmetics lovers here, and is the reason that Specktra is still going. Which leads me to the point of this post.

  Over the last few weeks, we’ve seen so many posts about PM’s being distributed to discuss specific launch details in private. While I will always maintain your right to discuss what you wish in private, sharing “secret” information to only a select group of people is by it’s very nature an exclusive “club”. I understand the initial intentions were good - to make sure the information is shared with fellow friends and MAC addicts, it has since created the perception that you have to meet certain criteria or “be in the know” in order to receive this information. When new users post innocently we have witnessed them berated by other members to keep quiet, how they “should know” that “we don’t talk about it”, etc. *This goes against the very foundation of the site.*

  For those who are new here - I want to assure you that this is not our intention. We truly strive to be a community where all feel welcome to participate in discussions. 

  I want to make it clear that _WE UNDERSTAND_ that with the rise of “evilbayers” (as they are now referred to i.e. those who glean our site for information in order to be one of the first to purchase, then post the goods on ebay outrageously marked up) it can feel challenging for those who are doing the research, spending the time, investing themselves in these new launches to share this information with those who are partners in this mission. We understand how you all must feel to have someone click a few buttons and have access to all the information you worked so hard to put together (*TRUST ME* when I say I KNOW HOW THIS FEELS! lol). 

  That is why we listened to your feedback and are making a change to better support you. We’re introducing a new subscriber feature,* MAC Chat Premium**. *Located right below MAC Chat and above MAC Chat Regional (soon - we are experiencing technical issues with moving the forum ATM) this Premium Member only forum willadd two important barriers - the user must be logged in and must have a Premium Membership to view and enter. This is the most elegant solution we could think of while working within the constraints of the forum software. You all had some great suggestions but, as much as I would love to, hiring a team of engineers to make it happen just isn't within our budget. 

  While some won’t see this as a solution for them (and we genuinely regret that), instead of breaking down the very nature of the site with private, cliquey PM networks this will instead support keeping the site healthy while maintaining the level of privacy you've requested. In this forum you can feel free to discuss anything you’d like, such as new color collections or share swatches. Our goal is for everyone to find a comfortable place to belong. The addition of a premium option levels the playing field and puts an end to the secret society undercurrent of the current situation. Simply put, if you want to have access to the information deemed too sensitive for public use you now have a democratic way to gain entry.

  This being said, Specktra will neither endorse nor tolerate the PM’ing system developed in recent months. Instead, we encourage you to utilize the new MAC Chat Premium forum as a safe space for your discussions. Let’s work together to foster an environment where everyone feels welcome. We understand this will upset some, I’m sincerely empathetic and welcome your feedback and suggestions. Specktra staff are always available for anyone who needs to chat about an experience on the forum or those who have suggestion/criticism/complaint.

  I’ll end this post with Specktra’s collective mission: *Specktra champions knowledge above all else. We follow through by sharing beauty information and opinions through an online forum community. Specktra exists solely to share our common passion, educate, and inspire makeup enthusiasts of all walks and races.*

For more information on becoming a premium member please look here.We’re actively working on new perks for Premium Members, including a new section of the Clearance Bin. We are also currently running a facebook contest where you can enter to win 1 of 5 Premium Memberships we’re gifting just for helping us spread the word about Specktra on Social Media. More details on new member perks to come soon.

  Thanks for reading!
  -Janice

*Clarifications made by me later in this thread in one place:*
  Quote: Originally Posted by *Janice* 



Hi all, sorry I am at work so this will have to be brief. I've read quite a few comments and thought it would be good to touch base on a few concerns. First of all, no poor Janice's please. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I mean that in the best way possible. While I do spend a lot of time thinking over every possible outcome of a situation, I can't be afraid to change the status quo when I see something happening on that genuinely concerns me. The forum is alive, each of your making your contributions and influences and I am sensitive to how delicate of a fabric that is.

The addition of MAC Chat Premium is not an attempt to "fix" the frenzy around MAC collection launches (I love the excitement we share about this!), it's not a crusade against evilbayers (which IMO are not the problem it's made out to be, I doubt it's even 1% of our population), it is about offering you a CHOICE. It should be YOUR decision to make if you want to have a secure place to chat about collection releases. No one should be punished for wanting to talk about where they ordered their product from. No one should feel excluded because they recently joined, or have no posts, or feel too intimidated to post because they've seen others eaten alive for mentioning where they shopped.

IF you want to take advantage of MAC Chat Premium as a private place to discuss collection releases, your purchases, and whatever else!, now you have that choice. If you don't choose to use MAC Chat Premium things will continue just as they are, there just won't be any fear of recrimination when you share where you purchased your latest lipstick from. This is a positive replacement for the current detrimental process of picking and choosing who has access to information.

The beautiful thing about being a part of something new is that you get the opportunity to influence and shape it. I can't wait to see what blossoms under the feet (fingers?) of those who choose to use it. I support whatever decision you make and I will hope you will support my efforts to give you the freedom to choose.



  Quote: Originally Posted by *Janice* 


  I'm not sure how my original post was interpreted as fundamentally changing anything about the way the Color Collection forum currently works. That verbiage was not in the post and the forum is not fundamentally changing. Everyone can pick apart the idea until there are so many holes you can see right through it. It won't change the fact that we do not condone the current status quo of the Color Collection forum and are advocating change. The state of the Color Collections forum evolved on it's on and I'm not happy with the interactions I've witnessed, the PM's I've received (from NEW and OLD members alike!) and the members we've lost because they made the mistake of saying the "wrong thing" or because the tone of the Color Collections forum is no longer FUN and supportive like it used to be, rather now it can feel negative and snarky when the "drama" flares up. 

  However you approach it there is no perfect solution, and I for one am not going to advocate locking information up. That is the point I am trying to make. With the addition of this premium member perk you now have the CHOICE to chat in a private forum instead of trying to get navigate a social maze of who to contact and what to say. I've spoken with Richelle, the MAC Chat moderator, about it being a part of her moderating responsibility to share whatever PERTINENT release information (i.e. new collections) is shared in MAC Chat Premium. Specktra will still be your leading resource for MAC information regardless of if you choose to become a premium member because _THAT'S WHAT WE STAND FOR_. I would be a complete hypocrite if I had thought this through and accepted that it would cause the site to become pay for information. It's not who I am and it's not a direction I will willingly take the site in. In MAC Chat Premium will there be discussions that have information that you might not see in the public forum? Will someone maybe score a lipstick before you do because of something posted there? Sure! It's a private forum so people will talk more freely amongst themselves.

  The two step process of registration and payment WILL assist in diverting the 1% of the population that could POSSIBLY be resellers and the larger "lurking" population that concerns some members. The more personal information those who are up to nefarious ends have to give up the less likely they are to do it. I think it's important to understand the "lurkers" are makeup addicts NO DIFFERENT than you. Maybe they are a member of another board or blog and they don't want to make an account because a) they don't have to to see the information and b) they prefer their community but can't get the same info there. It's not your job to police the forum for the few who are looking to exploit, being suspicious, and making those who don't "contribute" to some arbitrary standard feel like they are unwanted! I personally feel the reselling thing is blown WAY out of proportion. However, I listen and I respect the fact that people would like a private place to chat.

  Okay, so what about the concern there will be people who abuse the system? Sure, maybe it might happen. However, in the YEARS that the Clearance Bin instant access with Premium Membership has been established we have never had a case of abuse. Not once. Also, don't underestimate the love, care, and personal time investment each of your staff members make in keeping up with forum activity and linking it to outside acts. Yes, we do it all the time because we care about protecting the community. If we find someone is abusing their privileges we remove them. It's not difficult to reason out that what we give we can also remove. 

  As far as asking "well if nothing is changing, why would someone pay"? I don't know, maybe because they want to support the site? Maybe because they want a private chat? Maybe they want instant Clearance Bin access? Whatever the many reasons people may have when they choose to subscribe the ultimate goal is to *ensure they have the choice*. No secret societies, no vague guidelines for access, no arbitrary standards that go against the nature of the site, and no "why was I left off the PM". A_ fair and level_ playing field. And one personal thing on this - I'm sorry but anyone who tells me that this wasn't meant to be an exclusive club was IN and obviously can not comprehend what it was like for the users who were "out" by post count or by pure apathy. Period. 

  The best, most beautiful, part of this whole thread is that _you're talking about how you feel_. Thank you for speaking up and making your voice heard. Together we can make beautiful changes to the site, shape it into a place we all want to be and where we all have a home. You are the smartest, prettiest, totally amazing group of people I know and you make me so proud to be here. 




  Quote: Originally Posted by *Janice* 



@beautybylele I was referring more to news items than normal day to day posts from members.


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## CartoonChic (Dec 11, 2013)

Thanks for posting this. I have met some wonderful members in this forum that I consider to be my friends, and have also learned so much from many members. I was already considering buying a membership just to support Specktra. I see a membership as a way to give back to the community. Is the Lifetime Membership no longer available? I see the Platinum Membership, but it says it's for 10 years.


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## Janice (Dec 11, 2013)

CartoonChic said:


> Thanks for posting this. I have met some wonderful members in this forum that I consider to be my friends, and have also learned so much from many members. I was already considering buying a membership just to support Specktra. I see a membership as a way to give back to the community. Is the Lifetime Membership no longer available? I see the Platinum Membership, but it says it's for 10 years.


  Thanks for your support of the message CartoonChic. The Platinum membership is our Lifetime option, due to forum restrictions the max we can put is 10 years. However, the sub will be honored for the life of the account.


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## Greenbelt (Dec 11, 2013)

Thank you Janice for your hardwork to maintain the integrity of this site.  I am a new member and I log on almost everyday mainly because of the friendly welcoming atmosphere and great information about makeup.  I am not a makeup professional. I am just beginning to build up a makeup collection.  I so depend on the great ideas that I glean from this site to make wise choices in purchasing top quality makeup on my very limited budget.

  Thank you again.  I hope this problem will be resolved and that this site continues to be a happy helpful place to hang out with my morning coffee for many decades to come.


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## Spectacular (Dec 11, 2013)

Interesting. I'm still a bit of a newbie myself but I understand the frustration the lurkers/evilbayers were causing members who then went on to cause frustration for newbies (unintentionally) in trying to find some solution to the problem. 

  I hope it helps. Clearly the fault is MAC's and the way they're encouraging this competitiveness and price jacking. I feel like the company is at a fever pitch in terms of popularity now so there's a strange large market of individuals who have become bulk buyers snatching up available product to sell at massively inflated prices. 

  Hopefully everyone can be happy and some of this crazy 'selling out in an hour' starts to cool down so the whole process can be fun again.


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## Naynadine (Dec 12, 2013)

I'm sad to see the fees are that high, it's too expensive for me and being a non US member I don't think I can benefit a lot from it. I hope the collection info and swatches will still be shared in the regular section, I'd be sad to see less activity in the regular forums from now on.

  I hope it's a good solution for those who share release dates and launch information, without having to worry about the evilbayers lurking.


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## Audrey C (Dec 12, 2013)

Thank you, Janice. While I understand the frustration felt by members who are unable to obtain the products they want, I too have been made uncomfortable by attempts to exclude certain members from having publicly available information. Ultimately, this is caused by MAC's unfortunate business practices. I have personally shifted away from MAC being my primary makeup provider (after 20 years of purchasing from them) because I dislike the way they do business. Turning on each other isn't a helpful reaction; voting with our wallets is.

  I am not likely to purchase a premium membership because I do not value 'early' notifications that a collection has released; those who do (including resellers) may, Realistically, whenever demand exceeds supply resellers will take the opportunity to make a profit. I don't think that can be stopped, but I appreciate that you're trying to find a solution to what is really the logical outcome of MAC's business practices. Perhaps members will feel less frustrated or in some way 'protected' by having a separate section of the site. Honestly, I don't think it will change reseller actions; anyone who wants the information will pay for it. I hope that the majority of conversation doesn't shift to the chat area, or the site will lose its appeal for those of us not willing to indulge/incent MAC's behaviour.

  Thank you for making this site available to all of us.


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## boujoischic (Dec 12, 2013)

I'm not sure how the Premium section is going to be beneficial when members can post the color collections and launch info in the free section for everyone to see even lurkers. They would in effect be paying for information others will already be receiving free right?


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## Mac-Guy (Dec 12, 2013)

boujoischic said:


> I'm not sure how the Premium section is going to be beneficial when members can post the color collections and launch info in the free section for everyone to see even lurkers. They would in effect be paying for information others will already be receiving free right?


  That's a good question. I would assume that anything MAC-related would be posted exclusively in the premium section (color stories, swatches, release dates, etc.). If that is not the case, the premium section would be pointless. Maybe Janice can weight in and shed some light on how it will work?


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## Audrey C (Dec 12, 2013)

Mac-Guy said:


> That's a good question. I would assume that anything MAC-related would be posted exclusively in the premium section (color stories, swatches, release dates, etc.). If that is not the case, the premium section would be pointless. Maybe Janice can weight in and shed some light on how it will work?


  Those of us who don't purchase the membership would likely still post our thoughts/swatches on the free part of the site (unless we're told that we can't discuss MAC products outside of the premium section, of course). People like our Detective Naynadine, for instance, who is skilled at finding early pics/swatches. I suspect that those with memberships would likely post the information in the premium section and those without will post in the free section as we do today. I would think that there would be some overlap (not necessarily deliberately) as people discuss products/launches based on their membership status.

  I don't think there's a perfect solution for this. Those who purchase memberships may well include the very resellers we're attempting to deter.


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## Slimmycakes (Dec 12, 2013)

When I read it, I assumed that everything would remain the same in terms of posting of color collection's information but if you guys wanted to discuss places of sale (usual suspect websites) and restocks to give the community heads up, it would be encouraged to do so in the Premium Chat Area being that it's not visible to everyone instead of the PM system that used by some created a weird atmosphere. It is a valid question on whats the difference though so I'm interested in the answer as well.


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## Mac-Guy (Dec 12, 2013)

Audrey C said:


> Those of us who don't purchase the membership would likely still post our thoughts/swatches on the free part of the site (unless we're told that we can't discuss MAC products outside of the premium section, of course). People like our Detective Naynadine, for instance, who is skilled at finding early pics/swatches. I suspect that those with memberships would likely post the information in the premium section and those without will post in the free section as we do today. I would think that there would be some overlap (not necessarily deliberately) as people discuss products/launches based on their membership status.
> 
> I don't think there's a perfect solution for this. Those who purchase memberships may well include the very resellers we're attempting to deter.


I think it would really defeat the purpose when there are two places where swatches etc. are posted. For me it is also a question of time: I do not want to check the premium section AND the regular section to find swatches, color stories, etc.


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## boujoischic (Dec 12, 2013)

Slimmycakes said:


> When I read it, I assumed that everything would remain the same in terms of posting of color collection's information but if you guys wanted to discuss places of sale (usual suspect websites) and restocks to give the community heads up, it would be encouraged to do so in the Premium Chat Area being that it's not visible to everyone instead of the PM system that used by some created a weird atmosphere. It is a valid question on whats the difference though so I'm interested in the answer as well.


  But the announcement says that information should be posted and shared freely on the site not just the Premium Mac Chat section. So the places of sale would also be posted in the regular MAC Chat. The fact that the free MAC chat exist negates any benefits of having the Premium Chat.


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## Audrey C (Dec 12, 2013)

Janice, just a question about the memberships available. It looks like all levels have the same account upgrades



Special graphic underneath your name to show your "Premium Member" status 
 

Access to the private Premium Member lounge on the forum 	
No Ads on the forum! 	
New premium MAC chat area 
 
 The four month package is $15 USD ($3.75 per month), the eighth month $25 USD ($3.13 per month) and one year $45 USD ($3.75 a month). I'm in no way complaining about the levels, but just wanted to ask whether the one year price is accurate (since it would be cheaper to buy a four month and eight month separately to get a full year).

Thanks!


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## Audrey C (Dec 12, 2013)

Mac-Guy said:


> *I think it would really defeat the purpose when there are two places where swatches etc. are posted. *For me it is also a question of time: I do not want to check the premium section AND the regular section to find swatches, color stories, etc.


  I'm not disagreeing, just pointing out that unless there is no free MAC section it's the natural outcome. It wouldn't be malicious in any way, it's just what would occur naturally.


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## Mac-Guy (Dec 12, 2013)

Audrey C said:


> I'm not disagreeing, just pointing out that unless there is no free *MAC section it's the natural outcome*. It wouldn't be malicious in any way, it's just what would occur naturally.


 
  I totally agree. That's why I assumed that the Premium section is the only MAC section.


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## Audrey C (Dec 12, 2013)

Mac-Guy said:


> I totally agree. That's why I assumed that the Premium section is the only MAC section.


  We'll have to wait for Janice to clarify what her intent is with this. I do think it's a bit challenging to allow free discussion of all products except MAC (when it's such a significant brand). The discussion will just find its way to another board. I also think that we would end up getting fewer swatches in general since at least some who currently share information (Naynadine, some other bloggers/individuals who currently share early sample pics) may be less inclined to do so if they have to pay for the privilege.


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## OctoberViolet (Dec 12, 2013)

I joined for the chance to meet others with the same interests/addiction in cosmetics as myself. I'm very happy I did find this website. I really have enjoyed meeting and conversing with everyone. I feel this information (about new collections, reviews, swatches) should be free. I'm not going to pay to find out information that is avail freely. It isn't fair imho. I have never been PM'd about information nor have I ever PM'd anyone to keep things private. If this is the case then maybe those certain members need to be told not to do it and not punish the rest of us. I would be sad if I need to leave these boards due to information not being shared due to a few people. It's like school. One person does the wrong thing and everyone else gets punished for it. Not fair!


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## martiangurll (Dec 12, 2013)

I like the idea of a premium area where only members discuss the release dates for collections where there is limited amounts of products and to discourage lurkers.  Yes, it isn't fool proof and anyone making lots of money on ebay will probably pay the membership, but it will eliminate some of them.  More importantly, since there has been such a division of opinion of whether or not to announce the information about releases on specific retailers, I am glad to see that there has been an official stance so the feelings of exclusion and a special clique for only the "in people" to get a PM will be eliminated as that does seem counter to the spirit of sharing information and welcoming all to the site.    This is a difficult problem and I am glad to see that Janice has come up with a proactive solution and I appreciate it will be difficult to manage.  I am hoping the MAC marketing will be less exclusive in the future so these hard feelings won't continue to put stress on the members.


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## LiliV (Dec 12, 2013)

boujoischic said:


> But the announcement says that information should be posted and shared freely on the site not just the Premium Mac Chat section. So the places of sale would also be posted in the regular MAC Chat. The fact that the free MAC chat exist negates any benefits of having the Premium Chat.


  This is what's confusing me as well, are we still allowed to post swatches and release dates in the regular Mac Chat or is all of that only allowed in the Premium now?


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## Mac-Guy (Dec 12, 2013)

Naynadine said:


> I'm sad to see the fees are that high, it's too expensive for me and b*eing a non US member* I don't think I can benefit a lot from it. I hope the collection info and swatches will still be shared in the regular section, I'd be sad to see less activity in the regular forums from now on.
> 
> I hope it's a good solution for those who share release dates and launch information, without having to worry about the evilbayers lurking.


  I dare to claim that US and non-US members would benefit equally from a private section. Release dates, IMO, are the least relevant on the list. It's very easy to refresh the MAC website to check whether a collection is online or not.  At least, that is what I do.

  The benefit of a private section would be the access to swatches, collection names, color stories, and the discussion of all the above including what works for what complexion. This is the real issue - privileged information that is shared in a premium section - at stake.

  Further, the conversion from Euro/Dollar is in your favor, thus technically, you are paying less that US members. However, I certainly do understand that some are reluctant to pay a fee. It is money after all, but if it benefits our online community, it is money well spent.


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## Naynadine (Dec 12, 2013)

Mac-Guy said:


> I dare to claim that US and non-US members would benefit equally from a private section. *Release dates, IMO, are the least relevant on the list*. It's very easy to refresh the MAC website to check whether a collection is online or not.  At least, that is what I do.
> 
> The benefit of a private section would be the access to swatches, collection names, color stories, and the discussion of all the above including what works for what complexion. This is the real issue - privileged information that is shared in a premium section - at stake.
> 
> Further, the conversion from Euro/Dollar is in your favor, thus technically, you are paying less that US members. However, I certainly do understand that some are reluctant to pay a fee. It is money after all, but if it benefits our online community, it is money well spent.


     Ach, du immer... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  From my understanding that *is* the main reason for the private section. Maybe someone can shed some light on this...
  If swatches and product info will be exclusive to the premium members, what will the regular MAC section look like? I, still, highly doubt that the majority of Specktra members will sign up for a premium membership. And you can't stop people from posting their info, sharing links, etc. Specktra would be a very lonely place if all the MAC collection info and buzz would be restricted to a private section/paying members.
    I don't think it means a person doesn't want to contribute to the community just because they're not willing to pay a fee (that high). 

    I guess we just have to wait and see how this developes.


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## Janice (Dec 12, 2013)

Hi all, sorry I am at work so this will have to be brief. I've read quite a few comments and thought it would be good to touch base on a few concerns. First of all, no poor Janice's please.  I mean that in the best way possible. While I do spend a lot of time thinking over every possible outcome of a situation, I can't be afraid to change the status quo when I see something happening on that genuinely concerns me. The forum is alive, each of your making your contributions and influences and I am sensitive to how delicate of a fabric that is.   The addition of MAC Chat Premium is not an attempt to "fix" the frenzy around MAC collection launches (I love the excitement we share about this!), it's not a crusade against evilbayers (which IMO are not the problem it's made out to be, I doubt it's even 1% of our population),  it is about offering you a CHOICE. It should be YOUR decision to make if you want to have a secure place to chat about collection releases. No one should be punished for wanting to talk about where they ordered their product from. No one should feel excluded because they recently joined, or have no posts, or feel too intimidated to post because they've seen others eaten alive for mentioning where they shopped.    IF you want to take advantage of MAC Chat Premium as a private place to discuss collection releases, your purchases, and whatever else!, now you have that choice. If you don't choose to use MAC Chat Premium things will continue just as they are, there just won't be any fear of recrimination when you share where you purchased your latest lipstick from. This is a positive replacement for the current detrimental process of picking and choosing who has access to information.  The beautiful thing about being a part of something new is that you get the opportunity to influence and shape it. I can't wait to see what blossoms under the feet (fingers?) of those who choose to use it.  I support whatever decision you make and I will hope you will support my efforts to give you the freedom to choose.


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## Slimmycakes (Dec 12, 2013)

Slimmycakes said:


> When I read it, I assumed that everything would remain the same in terms of posting of color collection's information but if you guys wanted to discuss places of sale (usual suspect websites) and restocks to give the community heads up, it would be encouraged to do so in the Premium Chat Area being that it's not visible to everyone instead of the PM system that used by some created a weird atmosphere. It is a valid question on whats the difference though so I'm interested in the answer as well.
> But the announcement says that information should be posted and shared freely on the site not just the Premium Mac Chat section. So the places of sale would also be posted in the regular MAC Chat. The fact that the free MAC chat exist negates any benefits of having the Premium Chat.


  Hmm, I get what you're saying. Re-reading it, would this mean that only the brand MAC would be the subscriber forum?? I'm really curious. Janice where are thou?


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## Audrey C (Dec 12, 2013)

Thank you, Janice. This approach makes perfect sense to me. I like it a lot. 

  If I buy a membership, it will simply be to support the site I enjoy.


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## allthingsglam (Dec 12, 2013)

I will get the 4 month one to start but I want to be platinum oneday lol I will support the site I love specktra I don't like change but if its best for the site in the long run


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## elegant-one (Dec 12, 2013)

While I completely understand all sides to this chaos, I for one am going to defend those that pm'd others. They are being falsely labeled & their ONLY intent was to be sure that those who wanted to be able to find stock when they went to various webs sites & would be able to get it. Nothing more nothing less. It is a false characterization to say that it was a clique or exclusive or a club - it was not meant to be any of that. AND, many many of those that did pm are the kindest, giving people on this site - they are the ones who bend over backwards to do cps,  drive around & spend their own time to actually buy product for others here. I personally have had many brand new members pm without hesitation simply because they felt a trust towards me, never ever excluding anyone or turned away anyone that pm'd me! In fact, some that were new that pm'd me questions were too shy or uncomfortable to ask in public - I was both helpful & gracious.

  The issue has always been those that simply sign up here the day of a new launch wanting all kinds of information without reading. Not all, but many will never contribute to the site again. Not even exclusive to launches, but some are too lazy to put any effort into reading but we are going to chastise & label those that have contributed over & over & over to this site & its members. Umm, isn't that in some way part of the backbone to this site - the contributors???

  I also don't get the constant bad mouthing & labeling of those that have been here a long time - what, should we just go away -that's an insane point of view. I've been here a very long time, should I be ashamed of that & just go away? I'll put all that I have contributed to this site up against someone who comes on here 1 day & feels SOOOO offended that they have to ruin things for everyone - childish to say the least. Hell, people spend more energy being offended than what they do contributing imho! Society in general has become a childish, whiney people that get so offended by every little thing. People can't even enjoy Christmas trees anymore because hell, someones offended by a damn tree! In a way, That's whats happening here - change what I considered a family because some would rather be offended than contribute.

  Many new people posted how much they felt welcomed, we made them laugh & feel a part here. The difference between them & the 'offended' people, is that they jumped right in to contribute therefore making themselves feel comfortable. I hate that there are always bad apples that just have to spoil things for everyone. Maybe I'm just too old to put up with such childish things anymore.

  Having said all that, I do appreciate the hard work & time that you Janice & other staff do to have this site here. Just throwing out another viewpoint.


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## MissTT (Dec 12, 2013)

Thank you for sharing the forum's stance on the increased use of a PM system to discuss MAC releases, Janice. It has never seemed to be in the spirit of any forum to me as most forums are started to freely and publicly discuss a common interest. If there is hidden criteria posters must meet in order to be privy to information they will just lose interest. Without new members a forum will die. I don't think some people realize that. The PM system creates an in-group/out-group situation whether participants want to admit it or not.


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## elegant-one (Dec 12, 2013)

The PM's may not be a good idea, but at that moment on this site - it just happened. Someone came up with the idea & it went. Its not that a group of people set out to gather some private group or create some new format to this site - it just happened without thought that this would be some chaotic issue. I think most understand that if they have been reading the board for awhile. It was NOT a sinister plot to take over the site ..lol

  disclaimer - I do not approve of any of the verbal abuse toward any member - period!


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## vaisforluvrs (Dec 12, 2013)

elegant-one said:


> While I completely understand all sides to this chaos, I for one am going to defend those that pm'd others. They are being falsely labeled & their ONLY intent was to be sure that those who wanted to be able to find stock when they went to various webs sites & would be able to get it. Nothing more nothing less. It is a false characterization to say that it was a clique or exclusive or a club - it was not meant to be any of that. AND, many many of those that did pm are the kindest, giving people on this site - they are the ones who bend over backwards to do cps,  drive around & spend their own time to actually buy product for others here. I personally have had many brand new members pm without hesitation simply because they felt a trust towards me, never ever excluding anyone or turned away anyone that pm'd me! In fact, some that were new that pm'd me questions were too shy or uncomfortable to ask in public - I was both helpful & gracious.
> 
> The issue has always been those that simply sign up here the day of a new launch wanting all kinds of information without reading. Not all, but many will never contribute to the site again. Not even exclusive to launches, but some are too lazy to put any effort into reading but we are going to chastise & label those that have contributed over & over & over to this site & its members. Umm, isn't that in some way part of the backbone to this site - the contributors???
> 
> ...


I see what you are saying but I didn't read it that way. I don't think the people who are pming each other are being labeled as bad people in any way. It seems like maybe there is the perception to others that there is a sort of clique or club (even though the system was made with good intentions), and the staff just wants to remove that from the boards so that no one feels slighted or intimidated, so that everyone is on the same level and for the boards to be a positive space.

  With that said, I don't understand why anyone would go to a place with an already established culture, and think they have the right to change it. This board is open and available for any new members, but it is the established members who helped shape how this board is and came to be. I appreciate all of the knowledge and work that so many members have contributed here, and I hope they don't feel like the board is no longer the right place for them.


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## AkeshialuvsMAC (Dec 12, 2013)

boujoischic said:


> I'm not sure how the Premium section is going to be beneficial when members can post the color collections and launch info in the free section for everyone to see even lurkers. They would in effect be paying for information others will already be receiving free right?


I understand the logic but I 100% understand whay ur sayin. Y would someone pay for premium mem when the same info can and will be available. This is cliquey cause everyone cant afford too do it or actually want to do it. Idk how this would work...


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## AkeshialuvsMAC (Dec 12, 2013)

boujoischic said:


> But the announcement says that information should be posted and shared freely on the site not just the Premium Mac Chat section. So the places of sale would also be posted in the regular MAC Chat. The fact that the free MAC chat exist negates any benefits of having the Premium Chat.


yesssssssss


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## AkeshialuvsMAC (Dec 12, 2013)

allthingsglam said:


> I will get the 4 month one to start but I want to be platinum oneday lol I will support the site I love specktra I don't like change but if its best for the site in the long run


what has persuaded u to get membership? Whats diff from the reg thread?


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## CrimsonQuill157 (Dec 12, 2013)

Thank you for addressing this issue. I'm not sure how I feel about the MAC Chat Premium, but I suppose we shall see how it goes in time.

  As a relatively new member, I was discouraged when I saw the talk about PM'ing information about collections. I couldn't help but wonder, how do I get in on this? Is there a certain amount of time I will have to be active? Certain amount of posts? Knowing the right person? I'm in college, on winter break right now, but I know when the next semester comes around, I'm probably not going to be that active and I know there are other members who cannot contribute all the time as they would like to and the PM'ing just didn't seem like the right solution.


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## NaomiH (Dec 12, 2013)

I don't mind doing a premium membership to help support the site because I love this site and the ladies on it and have actually been thinking about it for a few weeks. I do not know that doing it for the sole purpose of being in the premium MAC chat would be worth it though as it'd only really be exclusive if all the people with early info decided to pay and only posted over there, which in turn would kill the free chat and that is not something I think anyone really wants. I do get where the idea behind it is coming from though and give big kudos to Janice for addressing the issue and coming up with the idea. I just hope in the long run we can come up with something that helps people get the items they want with out having anyone feel excluded.


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## highheels (Dec 12, 2013)

elegant-one said:


> The PM's may not be a good idea, but at that moment on this site - it just happened. Someone came up with the idea & it went. Its not that a group of people set out to gather some private group or create some new format to this site - it just happened without thought that this would be some chaotic issue. I think most understand that if they have been reading the board for awhile. It was NOT a sinister plot to take over the site ..lol
> 
> disclaimer - I do not approve of any of the verbal abuse toward any member - period!


  Be that as it may, you and some others don't seem to appreciate the *perception* you created with the PM system, which WAS exclusionary!  I personally read posts in which newbies were most certainly eaten alive for having dared to ask about the 'code' or "system" or whatever - certain members assumed the worst about these people, that they must have had nefarious intentions to suddenly join on a launch day, and no one here is entitled to make such assumptions about others unless there is any evidence to support it.  Likewise for people mentioning where/when they made a purchase, esp. on a launch day... people jumped down their throats for that too.   Guess what?   Anyone and everyone with an interest in cosmetics already knows where to buy the products - it's not classified or top secret information!
   We can't stop the Evil-bayers!  I dislike them as much as anyone else, but withholding information and/or only providing it to certain people who are somehow deemed to be legit is childish and contrary to the spirit of the site, which is/was the free giving and sharing of information with like-mind people in a respectful manner.  Instead there is an atmosphere of competition, exclusivity and judgment  around here.  Not everyone has the time time to "contribute" as much as some people on here, but there shouldn't be any adverse inference associated with that (I am a low post count member!) - there is a lot of talk about who is contributing what and how much - some of us just _don't have the time_, but it seems as though I have to defend my low post count now or else I'll be deemed a lurker/information thief.  I have been a member for almost 7 years I believe and, frankly, I don't enjoy it here nearly as much as I used to, specifically because of the behaviour mentioned above.  Things have definitely changed - it used to be fun - now I am simply too old for this constant drama.  And it's really too bad, because beauty and makeup is still my passion but I may have to go elsewhere to fulfill it.

  Thank you, Janice, for trying to be the voice of reason, but unfortunately I believe the re-sellers/Evilbayers will simply purchase a Premium Membership to gain the information they are after.


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## AkeshialuvsMAC (Dec 12, 2013)

I cant lie I dont see the point in this premium mem. At all. The people that are primarily angry are individuals that are new to the site come in and blast information makin it extremely hard for people who have stayed up gotten inaide infor or whateva that have shared it. As a result the already limited quantities r even more limited and some have to resort to payin double or triple for said item. Mayb the pm system wasn't 100% great but it made room for some type of order. New people come on askin can I get a pm can I get a pm... ummm u can stalk the sites just like all of us do to get ur items.  Yes the site is for knowledge and etc but help out contribute do some of the work so u can help out others as well.  This is very discouraging. .....  I do understand this idea will serve as a deterance to the new people and even the ebay people who want to buy up all the stock but is it worth it?  Would color stories and sightings only be allowed in the premium thread?   If so,how would there be any moderation in preventin it from bein released in the reg thread?  What will be discussed in the reg thread???? If its no color story no sightings?   Please offer clarity.


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## purplemaren (Dec 12, 2013)

From what I understand, the main value of the premium chat will be for people who don't wish to post the information "publicly."  Instead, they can post it in the premium section where select people (not ones they've picked, like with a pm, but ones who have paid for the membership) can see it, and the rest of us can just go on posting like normal, sharing any information and swatches we have.  Is this correct?  If so, sounds fair to me.  I've mostly moved on from MAC, because I get tired of the hype.  I think that nobody should be forced to share their "insider info" with the general public, but I agree that using Specktra to create a PM network where only certain people share information goes against the mission of Specktra.


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## AutumnMoon (Dec 12, 2013)

As a new member, I am worried about the new pay-membership requirement/option for MAC info. This is just my opinion, but I think if there is a private MAC pay membership area that people discuss new collections, dates, swatches, etc., people who want to buy and then sell at a markup will gladly pay money to be there. But if the info is mainly shared there, then I feel pressured to buy a membership when I don't really have the extra cash to pay for it (it's not a high fee, but it is a fee for something I have been getting for free and is not in my budget).

  I disagree that you can just check the website to see when a new collection is coming out. With the RiRi stuff, and even the Black Friday lipstick, that really wasn't advertised, or it was at the last minute. I managed to get my Black Friday lipstick because I was reading the thread and was told it was up. I work during the week when most of this stuff goes up so I can't sit all day at my computer refreshing. I'm not even supposed to be shopping at work.

  So, in conclusion, I really hope we can all continue to post new collections, new swatches, and dates in the regular section. Maybe all this was really heightened by the RiRi stuff, and it might die back down as the collections go away from that. The real person to be angry at is MAC for pulling this low stock stuff and making everything crazy. If that was improved, there would be enough for everyone (or as close as we can get). I for one, am going to take this complaint to MAC and let them know how I feel. I know that not one person can really make too much of a difference, but I will feel better directing my frustration to someone who is causing this issue.

  I hope that I haven't stepped on anyone's toes, or said anything inappropriate. I love this site, and I love that I am making friends here. It has been amazing. Thank you all.


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## AkeshialuvsMAC (Dec 12, 2013)

CrimsonQuill157 said:


> Thank you for addressing this issue. I'm not sure how I feel about the MAC Chat Premium, but I suppose we shall see how it goes in time.  As a relatively new member, I was discouraged when I saw the talk about PM'ing information about collections. I couldn't help but wonder, how do I get in on this? Is there a certain amount of time I will have to be active? Certain amount of posts? Knowing the right person? I'm in college, on winter break right now, but I know when the next semester comes around, I'm probably not going to be that active and I know there are other members who cannot contribute all the time as they would like to and the PM'ing just didn't seem like the right solution.


do u stalk sites just like the people that u expect to PM u? Or do u think u dont have to lose sleep and just come on get info and thats it? I dont think it's fair. Many of the ladies here have kids work school everyone is tired but how are u contributing? There are some people who would see that someone may wany something see it and purchase it from them. People would make sacrifices to help is it fair to b mad becauae someone wprked hard for the info not to have it just snatched away?   We all r suppose to help one another not just jumpin in for info to then blast on the thread makin it hard. U can stalk too wake up early and go to stores just like all of us. Dont be discouraged u can do the same.


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## AkeshialuvsMAC (Dec 12, 2013)

AkeshialuvsMAC said:


> I cant lie I dont see the point in this premium mem. At all. The people that are primarily angry are individuals that are new to the site come in and blast information makin it extremely hard for people who have stayed up gotten inaide infor or whateva that have shared it. As a result the already limited quantities r even more limited and some have to resort to payin double or triple for said item. Mayb the pm system wasn't 100% great but it made room for some type of order. New people come on askin can I get a pm can I get a pm... ummm u can stalk the sites just like all of us do to get ur items.  Yes the site is for knowledge and etc but help out contribute do some of the work so u can help out others as well.  This is very discouraging. .....  I do understand this idea will serve as a deterance to the new people and even the ebay people who want to buy up all the stock but is it worth it?  Am I wrong? But spectra has a policy in place that you dont get accesd to the clearance bin until u reach a post minimum. It isnt wrong to that someone with 2 posts can receive all the info that someone wil 500 posts can receive  Would color stories and sightings only be allowed in the premium thread?   If so,how would there be any moderation in preventin it from bein released in the reg thread?  What will be discussed in the reg thread???? If its no color story no sightings?   Please offer clarity.


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## allthingsmakeup (Dec 12, 2013)

I must say that I still believe info should be free of charge and available to everyone (new or elder member) without any kind of secretness.


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## CrimsonQuill157 (Dec 12, 2013)

AkeshialuvsMAC said:


> We all r suppose to help one another not just jumpin in for info to then blast on the thread makin it hard. U can stalk too wake up early and go to stores just like all of us. Dont be discouraged u can do the same.


When did I say any of that? Where did I say I wasn't willing to contribute? I'm not just new to this site, I'm new to make up in general which means I'm new to the whole LE thing. If it's something I want bad enough, of course I'm willing to do all of those things.


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## Monica (Dec 12, 2013)

Slimmycakes said:


> Hmm, I get what you're saying. Re-reading it, would this mean that only the brand MAC would be the subscriber forum?? I'm really curious. Janice where are thou?


 MAC isn't the only thing that can be discussed here, it's really for premium members to use as they wish. I think the reason that MAC was added in particular is down to the PM'ing about MAC launch details. Now theres a place to discuss those things in more private setting if you wish.


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## Monica (Dec 12, 2013)

Hi all,
  I worked with Janice and the other staff on brainstorming solutions we could put in place to help with the underlying concerns behind the PM’ing issue. I have a few things I’d like to address from some comments made here.
  First and foremost, MAC Chat Premium is optional. It was intended to provide a place for those who want to share but are concerned about privacy. Premium memberships start as low as $15 for 4 months and go up to $100 for a lifetime membership. I truly believe there are options to fit everyone’s budget if you decide it’s worth it to you. We listened to the feedback provided by many regulars of the MAC chat forum in Richelle83’s poll. There were a lot of great ideas thrown out and this seemed to be the most popular and the most realistic to implement right away. It will be what you guys make of it, and I’d put my money on it thriving.  However, if you don't "get the point" then it isn't for you and THAT'S OK.
  Of course I expect that both the public MAC Chat and the Premium MAC Chat will remain active. This isn’t a class war, the goal isn’t to divide you guys, it’s to give everyone more options on where they would like to post and congregate.  Specktra has never and will never be about information “for a fee”.
  We did our best to try and find the best solution but we acknowledge that there is no 100% fix all. If the MAC Chat forum is made to be similar to the clearance bin by adding a post count to access, then some would probably say that the evilbayers will just spam until they hit the post count.
  Also, no one is more appreciative of you guys than Janice and the staff. You are what keeps the site moving, growing, and exciting. You are who generates the content and makes the community what it is. The intention behind this move is to bring the issue to light so we can talk about it in a constructive way, not to make you feel attacked or unappreciated. It would sadden me to see any of the veterans go, but the best interests of the community as a whole must be considered.
  So, many thanks to those who have expressed their support, and many thanks to those who care enough to express their opinion even if they don’t agree with ours. Your opinion is truly valued and if you have ideas that you think would work or improve the site, I encourage you to express them. I, as well as the other staff, am available to you via PM and there is a sub forum here that is dedicated to your feedback

  **Edited for corrections to premium membership pricing**


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## Monica (Dec 12, 2013)

purplemaren said:


> From what I understand, the main value of the premium chat will be for people who don't wish to post the information "publicly."  Instead, they can post it in the premium section where select people (not ones they've picked, like with a pm, but ones who have paid for the membership) can see it, and the rest of us can just go on posting like normal, sharing any information and swatches we have.  Is this correct?  If so, sounds fair to me.  I've mostly moved on from MAC, because I get tired of the hype.  I think that nobody should be forced to share their "insider info" with the general public, but I agree that using Specktra to create a PM network where only certain people share information goes against the mission of Specktra.


  You are exactly right. If you want to use you can, if you don't want to use it you don't have to. Information can be shared ANYWHERE you wish. Specktra isn't becoming a "pay to play" site at all. I think that some people are jumping to conclusions before they truly understand the information.


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## Divinity (Dec 12, 2013)

Janice, I really want to thank you for your post.  I joined specktra 6 or 7 years ago because of the community and the work that goes into supporting us as members.  I haven't been on specktra as much as I have in years prior, but there has definitely been a change in the feel of the community.  I am so glad you are addressing it here and doing it in such a way that supports the community.  I really appreciate all you do that keeps specktra going and look forward to being more a part of it.


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## elegant-one (Dec 12, 2013)

elegant-one said:


> We can't stop the Evil-bayers!  I dislike them as much as anyone else, but withholding information and/or only providing it to certain people who are somehow deemed to be legit is childish and contrary to the spirit of the site, which is/was the free giving and sharing of information with like-mind people in a respectful manner.  Instead there is an atmosphere of competition, exclusivity and judgment  around here.  Not everyone has the time time to "contribute" as much as some people on here, but there shouldn't be any adverse inference associated with that (I am a low post count member!) - there is a lot of talk about who is contributing what and how much - some of us just _don't have the time_, but it seems as though I have to defend my low post count now or else I'll be deemed a lurker/information thief.  I have been a member for almost 7 years I believe and, frankly, I don't enjoy it here nearly as much as I used to, specifically because of the behaviour mentioned above.  Things have definitely changed - it used to be fun - now I am simply too old for this constant drama.  And it's really too bad, because beauty and makeup is still my passion but I may have to go elsewhere to fulfill it.
> 
> Thank you, Janice, for trying to be the voice of reason, but unfortunately I believe the re-sellers/Evilbayers will simply purchase a Premium Membership to gain the information they are after.


  WAIT A MINUTE...I NEVER created the PM system or any perception! Nor did I at ANY time say anything mean towards anyone - you are lumping me in with the whole thing & others posts!  I was simple stating the actual facts of what happened. The whole thing is my fault because some happened to pm me!? I never started it.

  If you are going to falsely accuse me publicly, then you post right here where I did any abuse towards another!

  As far as having time....I have little too but I still have done everything I can .


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## kimbunney (Dec 12, 2013)

I only joined 2 in a half years ago and it's a change in environment. I don't know when it became so negative to share information with others. Now we have to pm people to get info or wait  for them to pm you. Well I don't want to do that. I missed out the other morning stuff was clearly online and I had to check every site and by the time I found it myself stuff was gone. I knew it was up because increase in post count but because no one wanted to publicly share the information I missed out. I'm not a evil ebay person, I'm buying one of each and its for me. I try to contribute when I can but honestly lately I don't post so much because its so negative around here. You can't ask a question without someone getting mad because an answer was written a few pages before. You can't post information to share without people getting angry. lol its like damn whats the point of the site now?


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## AkeshialuvsMAC (Dec 12, 2013)

CrimsonQuill157 said:


> When did I say any of that? Where did I say I wasn't willing to contribute? I'm not just new to this site, I'm new to make up in general which means I'm new to the whole LE thing. If it's something I want bad enough, of course I'm willing to do all of those things.


ok... well dont let others "discourage" u if its something u really want


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## ARmakeupjunkie (Dec 12, 2013)

kimbunney said:


> I only joined 2 in a half years ago and it's a change in environment. I don't know when it became so negative to share information with others. Now we have to pm people to get info or wait for them to pm you. Well I don't want to do that. I missed out the other morning stuff was clearly online and I had to check every site and by the time I found it myself stuff was gone. I knew it was up because increase in post count but because no one wanted to publicly share the information I missed out. I'm not a evil ebay person, I'm buying one of each and its for me. I try to contribute when I can but honestly lately I don't post so much because its so negative around here. *You can't ask a question without someone getting mad because an answer was written a few pages before. You can't post information to share without people getting angry. lol its like damn whats the point of the site now?*


  I have never understood this but, it happens all the time!  If you don't want to answer a question, then don't answer.  No need for anyone to get upset because the same question has been asked and answered 12 pages ago.  Sometimes, after being 20, 30, 100 pages behind, I just don't want to read every post.  If you do, good but, it's not for everyone.


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## fabulousmoolah (Dec 12, 2013)

Wow. I am really going to miss the way things were. I stalk the mac site and specktra at the same time when there's something new coming out. If mac chat is going to be a ghost town due to all the chat being taken to premium, I guess I'm going to have to look for some ladies' twitter accounts that might tweet out the info.

  When the "system" started I asked for the PM and got one even though I'm relatively new. It wasn't exclusionary.


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## misfitted (Dec 12, 2013)

I'm very interested in seeing how the culture of Specktra will adjust with the addition of MAC Premium Chat.  Here's what people seem to forget... there are MANY members on the site, but only very few have that "inside scoop" when it comes to MAC info. So truth be told, a good 95% of us are getting free info that these folks have chosen to share. And I am SURE that there are others that used to share, but have stopped due to the nonsense that has started to spread.  Plus, we do not know all of the risks associated with these folks sharing this information publicly. In my opinion, it seems that some people are now worried that these folks will take their inside track information to the MAC Premium Chat section and now they won't have dibs on that early release information unless they pay for it. You can't really get upset if you are only a consumer of the information, and not providing it...  Furthermore, it's Specktra.com, not MACchat.com.  So if your only reason for being here is to join in on MAC Chat and get early release information (which MANY are but will never admit that), you have to make the decision about whether or not getting that "inside scoop" is worth your hard earned dollars or not.  It seems pretty simple to me.


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## boujoischic (Dec 12, 2013)

ARmakeupjunkie said:


> I have never understood this but, it happens all the time!  If you don't want to answer a question, then don't answer.  No need for anyone to get upset because the same question has been asked and answered 12 pages ago.  Sometimes, after being 20, 30, 100 pages behind, *I just don't want to read every post.  If you do, good but, it's not for everyone. *


  So you're saying you don't want to have to read the threads like everyone else you feel entitled to be spoon fed information? Good luck with that.


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## highheels (Dec 12, 2013)

elegant-one said:


> WAIT A MINUTE...I NEVER created the PM system or any perception! Nor did I at ANY time say anything mean towards anyone - you are lumping me in with the whole thing & others posts!  I was simple stating the actual facts of what happened. The whole thing is my fault because some happened to pm me!? I never started it.
> 
> If you are going to falsely accuse me publicly, then you post right here where I did any abuse towards another!


  Elegant, I have no idea whether you created the PM system or not - I don't know who did, nor do I care, it's irrelevant.  But you are supporting/defending its use, thereby contributing to the overall _perception_ that only certain members are entitled to "be in the know" about certain information around here.  I know for a fact that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

  I did not specifically say say that _you_ personally said anything mean towards anyone else - I said "people" or "certain members" - I was speaking generally, in response to your post, but I can think of a few members who did attack newbies.  But naming names doesn't solve anything.

  Look, all of this is my personal opinion, my take, and my impression of the site.  I don't expect you or anyone else to agree.  I originally came to this site to *learn* because I thought my makeup skills and creativity were very lacking and I was thrilled at the prospect of being among like-minded people and professionals from whom I could learn some useful tips and share our mutual passion for all things beauty- it was fun!  But those days are long gone.

  As an aside, I have also offered to pick up items for other members since I work very close to a MAC store; I just don't state it publicly - has anyone ever considered that?  So to anyone reading, my low post count (or anyone else's) should never be interpreted as "not contributing" or "not being involved" - I prefer to do my work behind the scenes, thus contributing in my own way. What's wrong with that?  But seems as though unless you're an active member posting on here all day long, for some reason you're accused of either not contributing, or being here for the wrong reasons - there's a lot of gray area, people.

  Cheers.


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## ARmakeupjunkie (Dec 12, 2013)

boujoischic said:


> So you're saying you don't want to have to read the threads like everyone else you feel entitled to be spoon fed information? Good luck with that.


  Not sure what your problem is or why you are aiming your nasty attitude at me but, I don't want to read tons of post about pets, TV shows, and all the other drama that keeps popping up.  When I joined Specktra back in 07 it was all about talking about what we loved.  It has changed and not for the good.  It's crazy out here.  I never came here for the 'spoon fed information' and still don't.  I come to talk about what I love and I'm thankful everyday for the great MA I have.


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## misfitted (Dec 12, 2013)

Quote:Originally Posted by *highheels* 



 
Elegant, I have no idea whether you created the PM system or not - I don't know who did, nor do I care, it's irrelevant.  But you are supporting/defending its use, thereby contributing to the overall _perception_ that only certain members are entitled to "be in the know" about certain information around here.  I know for a fact that I'm not the only one who feels this way.
 
I did not specifically say say that _you_ personally said anything mean towards anyone else - I said "people" or "certain members" - I was speaking generally, in response to your post, but I can think of a few members who did attack newbies.  But naming names doesn't solve anything.
 
Look, all of this is my personal opinion, my take, and my impression of the site.  I don't expect you or anyone else to agree.  I originally came to this site to *learn* because I thought my makeup skills and creativity were very lacking and I was thrilled at the prospect of being among like-minded people and professionals from whom I could learn some useful tips and share our mutual passion for all things beauty- it was fun!  But those days are long gone.
 
As an aside, I have also offered to pick up items for other members since I work very close to a MAC store; I just don't state it publicly - has anyone ever considered that?  *So to anyone reading, my low post count (or anyone else's) should never be interpreted as "not contributing" or "not being involved" - I prefer to do my work behind the scenes, thus contributing in my own way. What's wrong with that?  But seems as though unless you're an active member posting on here all day long, for some reason you're accused of either not contributing, or being here for the wrong reasons - there's a lot of gray area, people.*
 
Cheers.



  Interesting point... "Contribution" means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, and I don't think it's fair for anyone to try and put a measure on that. As far as MAC Chat is concerned, I feel like some people consider making posts at all or simply talking about what they plan to purchase to be a contribution, while others feel that posting early release info, early swatches, etc. is a "real" contribution. I agree, there's a lot of gray area.


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## Monica (Dec 12, 2013)

boujoischic said:


> So you're saying you don't want to have to read the threads like everyone else you feel entitled to be spoon fed information? Good luck with that.


  Wow, I didn't interpret her comment as being asked to be spoon fed at all. I don't think it's horrible of someone to ask for a little help in catching up, and I would hope that someone would be kind enough to offer them a little help if they can. If that person isn't you, then all you have to do is keep reading, not respond with an insulting comment. Your comment exemplifies the negativity that they were bringing up in the first place.


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## boujoischic (Dec 12, 2013)

MonikaRose said:


> Wow, I didn't interpret her comment as being asked to be spoon fed at all. I don't think it's horrible of someone to ask for a little help in catching up, and I would hope that someone would be kind enough to offer them a little help if they can. If that person isn't you, then all you have to do is keep reading, not respond with an insulting comment. Your comment exemplifies the negativity that they were bringing up in the first place.


 I wasn't being negative I was saying other members read through the threads because we enjoy them. Reading the threads responding and participating is what brings is closer as members but were being told people are cliquey? She saying she doesn't want to and feels upset if someone doesn't catch her up. I have helped other members and I'm well aware I don't have to but if you don't wanna read the threads why join.


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## kimbunney (Dec 12, 2013)

Quote:Originally Posted by *boujoischic* 




I wasn't being negative I was saying other members read through the threads because we enjoy them. Reading the threads responding and participating is what brings is closer as members but were being told people are cliquey? She saying she doesn't want to and feels upset if someone doesn't catch her up. I have helped other members and I'm well aware I don't have to but if you don't wanna read the threads why join.


  Spoonfeeding someone applies that they are acting like a baby about something, if I'm incorrect please let me know. I'm quite sure she is an adult woman and that comment is negative. If I am wrong let me know and please show me where that was positive and helpful by telling someone they need information spoonfeed to them because you feel they are too lazy to read 100+ pages.


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## boujoischic (Dec 12, 2013)

kimbunney said:


> Quote:Originally Posted by *boujoischic*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I'm not gonna go back and forth about it. You can chose to feel however you like about the way I chose to word my response. I'm done with it though.


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## ARmakeupjunkie (Dec 12, 2013)

boujoischic said:


> I wasn't being negative I was saying other members read through the threads because we enjoy them. Reading the threads responding and participating is what brings is closer as members but were being told people are cliquey? She saying she doesn't want to and* feels upset if someone doesn't catch her up. *I have helped other members and I'm well aware I don't have to but if you don't wanna read the threads why join.


  I never said I was upset because someone didn't catch me up.  I don't ask, and look for answers myself, if there is something I need to know.  I just don't understand why some members get so upset when others ask questions.


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## AkeshialuvsMAC (Dec 12, 2013)

I can understand what @boujoischic is saying sometimes instead of asking to be caught up alot of info is usually on the 1st post which gets updated people never ever go bac there idk why! I get that u may not want to read 20pages or more that u missed but u have to expect that this can b annoying. How do u expect people to get to kno u if u dont contribute comment and read?  Maybe for lack of a better wrd she said spoon feeding but u can't expect every single question to b answered especially if it is accessible if u just participate.  But people who just pop on to find something and thats it often have this problem. Everyone needs to b considerate of others time and participation


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## MissTT (Dec 12, 2013)

purplemaren said:


> From what I understand, the main value of the premium chat will be for people who don't wish to post the information "publicly."  Instead, they can post it in the premium section where select people (not ones they've picked, like with a pm, but ones who have paid for the membership) can see it, and the rest of us can just go on posting like normal, sharing any information and swatches we have.  Is this correct?  If so, sounds fair to me.  I've mostly moved on from MAC, because I get tired of the hype.  I think that nobody should be forced to share their "insider info" with the general public, but I agree that using Specktra to create a PM network where only certain people share information goes against the mission of Specktra.


  Not directed at you, purplemaren, but continuing a conversation open to anyone's response. What happens when a member of Premium shares information in general chat? How will that person be treated by other Premium members who likely feel the info should remain there - especially when they've paid for the privilege? Based on what I've seen lately that action would not be received well.

  Argh, I have so much more to say and keep deleting it for various reasons. I will just say that I contribute much less in the threads that demand secret codes and PMs for info. It's exclusionary in its very nature no matter the intent and does not create a welcoming environment.


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## misfitted (Dec 12, 2013)

I think what she meant was pretty clear, however the way that it was worded may have insinuated that the person she directed the comment to wants to be "spoonfed" information as opposed to finding it for themselves. And nowhere did that person say they wanted to just be handed information outright. They said that sometimes they don't feel like catching up on a bunch of pages. And so what? Any person has the right to read through all of the updates or not.  Hell, when I see 1000+ posts that I've missed there's now way I'm going to read through all of that. And if I decide to ask a question I can. And if someone wants to answer my question they can.   Maybe what was said was said because the post was misunderstood, maybe it was said out of frustration, but whatever the reason, if you're going to throw something out there, take note to how it may be interpreted before you say it. At the end of the day, ADMIN has made the decision on how MAC Chat will be managed on this site. Take it or leave it.


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## AkeshialuvsMAC (Dec 12, 2013)

MissTT said:


> Not directed at you, purplemaren, but continuing a conversation open to anyone's response. What happens when a member of Premium shares information in general chat? How will that person be treated by other Premium members who likely feel the info should remain there - especially when they've paid for the privilege? Based on what I've seen lately that action would not be received well.  Argh, I have so much more to say and keep deleting it for various reasons. I will just say that I contribute much less in the threads that demand secret codes and PMs for info. It's exclusionary in its very nature no matter the intent and does not create a welcoming environment.


nothing will happen apparently.  Its no way to monitor the info showin up in both threads so does it even make sense to pay when u can get it for free? Unless all the people that get the "scoop" is goin to premium lol idk smh


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## misfitted (Dec 12, 2013)

Quote:Originally Posted by *MissTT* 



Not directed at you, purplemaren, but continuing a conversation open to anyone's response. *What happens when a member of Premium shares information in general chat? How will that person be treated by other Premium members who likely feel the info should remain there - especially when they've paid for the privilege? *Based on what I've seen lately that action would not be received well.
 
Argh, I have so much more to say and keep deleting it for various reasons. I will just say that I contribute much less in the threads that demand secret codes and PMs for info. It's exclusionary in its very nature no matter the intent and does not create a welcoming environment.



  BINGO. THIS is what I am curious to see. Like Janice said, making MAC Chat premium only provides members the option to post information they want to post in a private environment, it does not stop them from sharing information across the premium chat versus the free chat. So if info leaches out to the free chat, it is what it is, if it does not, those members not willing to pay for the premium membership will have to find other means for information. AND THERE ARE PLENTY!  I for one, found out about Specktra through other makeup and beauty blogs.  So it's not like folks only contributing to the free chat will not be able to get early release info at all.  I mean that's what I feel this hoopla is REALLY about... People are feeling excluded from RELEASE INFORMATION. It's not as much about maintaining the pleasant atmosphere of the community for a lot of folks. I can understand both sides though.


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## pinkpaint (Dec 12, 2013)

boujoischic said:


> So you're saying you don't want to have to read the threads like everyone else you feel entitled to be spoon fed information? Good luck with that.


  This is the attitude that persists here and it's exactly what I'm not feeling. This whole, "Oh, you're not doing the work, you're not reading enough posts, you're not stalking the sites at 4am, you don't have a large enough post count, you don't follow our "rules" and so you don't deserve our information, atmosphere.

  Obviously, I'm not supplying early information and swatches. There are only about 4-5 people here who do. The rest of us rely on them. But I try to be friendly and help people when I can. I give people a heads up if I see a product that they want has been restocked or what store might have them. One afternoon I called at least 20 stores trying to find a lipstick for a friend here. I don't have a huge post count but I think I contribute in my own way. And lately, some of the new members are the friendliest people here. I don't think anyone needs to prove themselves to us. How about we don't assume the worst about every person that joins the site? And, even if they do join the site on the day of the launch, most of them are just like us. They love makeup and want to be able to get their products, too. I don't know, maybe I don't get it...

  The internet does not lend itself to secretiveness. I mean, there will still be people who are premium members who will post collection info, swatches, and launches on their blogs and instagrams. It will happen. So while I appreciate the thought, I don't think there is really a solution. I just wish that this didn't become the topic of discussion every other day...


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## Medgal07 (Dec 12, 2013)

I supported a *suggestion* that PM’ing for _*SPECIFIC REQUESTS  might be a manner in which *__*Specktra*__* members *__*could be *__*facilitated in g*__*etting, for example, restocked limited edition items before resellers could poach that info.  *_PM’ing was *NEVER* intended to be exclusionary and the tone, tenor and intent have been grossly misstated.  Rather, the intent was to protect information for the innocent—those who worked and couldn’t have access to information quickly enough to get limited edition items, for example.  How that was taken out of context when so many others here echoed that they understood what it was all about I’ll never know.  *The idea was, if someone says I’m looking for X, if you know where they could find X you let that person know. * How that translates to an exclusive club is beyond me. I'm not talking about public readily available or widespread product information here.  In the context in which I made my original suggestion, there would be_ a request by a specific person_, and a response in kind, via PM.  I think this worked for many until someone suggested this was a club or exclusive sorority. That was not the intent and I don’t have any idea how *that* conclusion was made or how this got lumped into newbie vs veteran and code/no code which is totally unrelated to what PM in this context was about.  
I have gained access to several products (non-MAC because that's what I was seeking) over the past two days that would have taken an exorbitant amount of time or an act of God for me to locate without some assistance.  Because _*I made my wishes known,*_ individuals who don’t know me from hunger reached out and pointed me in the right direction.  They did so via PM.  Is that a crime? I think not.  They did so because I made a specific request and to allow me to gain access to the product before a lurking reseller, who would then seek to sell it to me for three times more than RTC. 
Lastly, I’ve PM'd to reach out to newbies to say hey—if you need anything or have questions that you’re uncomfortable asking publicly, feel free to PM me.  I’ve also followed up to see if they were getting everything they needed.  Why did I resort to a PM?  Because I know what it is to be new and feel awkward about asking a question that you think others might misjudge you for asking. I’m not saying that’s the case, but I’ve seen people preface a question in a manner that suggests that they think it’s less than an intelligent one. It pains me to hear people say they’re not included. Jump in----—get away from the wall DEAR FLOWERs and just DANCE.  I did.  That said, I would wholeheartedly support a system in which a seasoned member/veteran partners with a newbie to answer questions or just reach out to support them through their ’newness’ or that awkward feeling that we’ve all probably experienced.  For all the complaints about being newbies and what has become an us and them culture, I have to think there is just as much gratitude because I see people reaching out on a daily basis.


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## keridabeenfabb (Dec 12, 2013)

soo in other words?? im not following whats going on


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## elegant-one (Dec 12, 2013)

Medgal - exactly


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## highheels (Dec 12, 2013)

Medgal, the issue isn't about PMing in general - read Janice's original post.   The issue was about the 'code' or 'system' in  relation to MAC launches and how not everyone was in the know, specifically newbies or infrequent posters, because someone (or group) decided those people couldn't be trusted - but based on what criteria?  Simply being a newbie? On top of that, anyone who publicly spoke about the 'code' was vilified for doing so, all of which created the impression that unless you were part of the mysterious 'club' or possessed some other unknown attribute, you were not permitted to know this top-secret information and shouldn't make the mistake of asking in the forum no less!    Well, it's pretty hard to abide by a system about which you have been given little or no information.  Anyone who asked publicly likely did so without  realizing that others had already decided it was a hush-hush topic and were therefore criticized for it; but how were they to know it was a secret in the first place?? This is what we're saying.   By the time you PM'd another member to ask what the code system was, it was too late.  PMing has its place obviously - like the example you gave above for hard-to-fine items - that's great, and no one is disputing that; it has nothing to do with censorship or secrecy; that's your private business.  But no one should be criticized for posting in a public forum dedicated to the topic about which they are posting; imposing secrecy or censoring information in a public forum is ridiculous and not in the spirit of Specktra.


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## Ajigglin (Dec 12, 2013)

fabulousmoolah said:


> Wow. I am really going to miss the way things were. I stalk the mac site and specktra at the same time when there's something new coming out. If mac chat is going to be a ghost town due to all the chat being taken to premium, I guess I'm going to have to look for some ladies' twitter accounts that might tweet out the info.  When the "system" started I asked for the PM and got one even though I'm relatively new. It wasn't exclusionary.


  +1. The PM thing is being blown waaaaaay out of proportion. I am a newbie and I was given the info as soon as I asked.  I personally will not pay for the membership. I'm glad that people can still post swatches, etc in the free area, so thanks for that clarification. I responded to the poll and voted that we conduct this the way we do the Clearance Bin. Last I checked, it had the most votes. Why wasn't that chosen as a solution?


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## Richelle83 (Dec 12, 2013)

highheels said:


> Well, it's pretty hard to abide by a system about which you have been given little or no information. Anyone who asked publicly likely did so without realizing that others had already decided it was a hush-hush topic and were therefore criticized for it; but how were they to know it was a secret in the first place?? This is what we're saying. By the time you PM'd another member to ask what the code system was, it was too late. PMing has its place obviously - like the example you gave above for hard-to-fine items - that's great, and no one is disputing that; it has nothing to do with censorship or secrecy; that's your private business. But no one should be criticized for posting in a public forum dedicated to the topic about which they are posting; imposing secrecy or censoring information in a public forum is ridiculous and not in the spirit of Specktra.


  Sorry but NO. The whole point of the code system AND pm'ng people was to keep the restock information in house.

  A member PM'd me about a system. I intern mulled it over and decided ON MY OWN to send this information to people as I saw them post or as I had time to, this was to see if we needed to tweak the idea or figure something else out. There are THOUSANDS of people on here and hundreds who post at any given time. Some people just don't seem to understand that this wasn't an exclusive club, no one had to be a long time member. THERE WAS NO CRITERIA. I missed tons of people, some new, some long term members. Right before Rihanna's Fall collection came out for the dept stores the word was spread by me and several other members to anyone who asked, many just went ahead and pm'd me and others. When people felt they had missed out they didn't pm me or someone else they immediately said "is there some club I have to be apart of to get the info?" That is how this mess all started

  Rihanna's fall collection came out and the code system worked until someone not in the know posted who had the collection up. I'm sorry it didn't really work. It was completely dumb of me to think that I could inform everyone of this info so that we were all on the same page. The thing that I loved about being on here is that even though the entire world can see everything we post it still felt like a family. So my thought process was to help out and protect my family, in essence. 

  BTW when I pm'd people not one said this was a bad idea or said it wouldn't work. NOT ONE.

  Either way, Janice has a system planned and we'll just have to see it in action. Hopefully the forum will get back to the way it was when I first joined or even last year. 

  Also have to clarify that I posted several times if you have no clue of what is going on feel free to PM me. Others passed along that same message when some kept asking what is going on.


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## Ajigglin (Dec 12, 2013)

highheels said:


> Medgal, the issue isn't about PMing in general - read Janice's original post.   The issue was about the 'code' or 'system' in  relation to MAC launches and how not everyone was in the know, specifically newbies or infrequent posters, because someone (or group) decided those people couldn't be trusted - but based on what criteria?  Simply being a newbie? On top of that, anyone who publicly spoke about the 'code' was vilified for doing so, all of which created the impression that unless you were part of the mysterious 'club' or possessed some other unknown attribute, you were not permitted to know this top-secret information and shouldn't make the mistake of asking in the forum no less!    Well, it's pretty hard to abide by a system about which you have been given little or no information.  Anyone who asked publicly likely did so without  realizing that others had already decided it was a hush-hush topic and were therefore criticized for it; but how were they to know it was a secret in the first place?? This is what we're saying.   By the time you PM'd another member to ask what the code system was, it was too late.  PMing has its place obviously - like the example you gave above for hard-to-fine items - that's great, and no one is disputing that; it has nothing to do with censorship or secrecy; that's your private business.  But no one should be criticized for posting in a public forum dedicated to the topic about which they are posting; imposing secrecy or censoring information in a public forum is ridiculous and not in the spirit of Specktra.


  But that code/system was also available to all members-old and new. I got the code, and I'm new. It was explained ad nauseum that the code was to deter lurkers-the ones that don't create an account, read the info, and run. If you created an account, you could get the code. This is supported by numerous threads in the MAC Chat section. If I never get another shred of info again because all the insiders decide to pay and post in the premium section, so be it. It was a good run, and I'll go back to what I did for MAC collections before, which worked quite nicely for me. There's always Sephora talk and such. I'm good either way.


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## AkeshialuvsMAC (Dec 12, 2013)

I see both sides but.... I am not payin for membership.  Because there isnt a substantial difference with both threads.  Give me something more and then I will re consider. Until then... i stand my ground


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## MissTT (Dec 12, 2013)

Medgal - What you're saying and what Janice is addressing are, I think, two different animals. I feel like this mentality started when Belk was coming up on the scene as an online provider of MAC collections. There started the fussing of not naming the site and posters calling it the secret site. People were definitely chastised for typing the word Belk. Not MAC. Not Nordstrom. Not Bloomingdales. Not even Dillards. But Belk. From there it has seemed to escalate into not posting where you purchased an item period. A few people started the chastising and now many more people, including new posters strangely, have jumped into the fray like a pack. The MAC threads - specifically RiRi collections - have become a really nasty place. (And not only for the above situation. That's another conversation to have over a glass bottle of wine.) It's so nasty that I don't even like to post there. And when I don't want to post there I don't want to read there. When I don't feel like reading I stop visiting the site. When I stop visiting the site... This is how great forums die. I've witnessed it several times before. Nastiness drives away the good members. The ones you actually want to meet in real life. The ones you call friends. They leave quietly, but they certainly leave.

  I can think of at least 5 contributing members including myself who've been here over a year and were not privy to the MAC-Sellers-Code-Club. I was away for three days and came back to talk of "The Code" distributed via PM (or Facebook - I honestly don't know how it went down.) I'm not one to beg people to like me or be my friend so when I didn't get contacted it was clear this group wasn't intended for me. Who do I look like asking if I can sit at the popular girls' table? I didn't feel comfortable or welcome to ask about it. Despite being a daily poster it appeared I hadn't earned my stripes, wasn't in the right clique, or didn't kiss enough butts. A month or so later I was having a positive conversation with a person who knew about the code and after lots of PMing about another topic I finally asked her about it and she told me. While I know I could have PMd several people here and they would have immediately given me the information I did not feel comfortable doing so because I did not feel _welcome_. It's not in my personality to impose myself onto a group that sends a shred of evidence that they may not want me.


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## highheels (Dec 12, 2013)

Ajigglin and Richelle, I disagree. I recall discussions where members openly discussed whether only people with a certain post count should be privy to the code information, just like accessing the clearance bin. I recall one newbie in particular who was harshly criticized for asking about it on the same day she joined, everyone assumed the worst about her, it was terrible.


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## AkeshialuvsMAC (Dec 12, 2013)

highheels said:


> Ajigglin and Richelle, I disagree. I recall discussions where members openly discussed whether only people with a certain post count should be privy to the code information, just like accessing the clearance bin. I recall one newbie in particular who was harshly criticized for asking about it on the same day she joined, everyone assumed the worst about her, it was terrible.


but doesn't that seem suspect to u? People continually do it. So maybe we should just blast every restock.... lets see who gets anything... smh


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## Janice (Dec 12, 2013)

I'm not sure how my original post was interpreted as fundamentally changing anything about the way the Color Collection forum currently works. That verbiage was not in the post and the forum is not fundamentally changing. Everyone can pick apart the idea until there are so many holes you can see right through it. It won't change the fact that we do not condone the current status quo of the Color Collection forum and are advocating change. The state of the Color Collections forum evolved on it's on and I'm not happy with the interactions I've witnessed, the PM's I've received (from NEW and OLD members alike!) and the members we've lost because they made the mistake of saying the "wrong thing" or because the tone of the Color Collections forum is no longer FUN and supportive like it used to be, rather now it can feel negative and snarky when the "drama" flares up. 

  However you approach it there is no perfect solution, and I for one am not going to advocate locking information up. That is the point I am trying to make. With the addition of this premium member perk you now have the CHOICE to chat in a private forum instead of trying to get navigate a social maze of who to contact and what to say. I've spoken with Richelle, the MAC Chat moderator, about it being a part of her moderating responsibility to share whatever PERTINENT release information (i.e. new collections) is shared in MAC Chat Premium. Specktra will still be your leading resource for MAC information regardless of if you choose to become a premium member because _THAT'S WHAT WE STAND FOR_. I would be a complete hypocrite if I had thought this through and accepted that it would cause the site to become pay for information. It's not who I am and it's not a direction I will willingly take the site in. In MAC Chat Premium will there be discussions that have information that you might not see in the public forum? Will someone maybe score a lipstick before you do because of something posted there? Sure! It's a private forum so people will talk more freely amongst themselves.

  The two step process of registration and payment WILL assist in diverting the 1% of the population that could POSSIBLY be resellers and the larger "lurking" population that concerns some members. The more personal information those who are up to nefarious ends have to give up the less likely they are to do it. I think it's important to understand the "lurkers" are makeup addicts NO DIFFERENT than you. Maybe they are a member of another board or blog and they don't want to make an account because a) they don't have to to see the information and b) they prefer their community but can't get the same info there. It's not your job to police the forum for the few who are looking to exploit, being suspicious, and making those who don't "contribute" to some arbitrary standard feel like they are unwanted! I personally feel the reselling thing is blown WAY out of proportion. However, I listen and I respect the fact that people would like a private place to chat.

  Okay, so what about the concern there will be people who abuse the system? Sure, maybe it might happen. However, in the YEARS that the Clearance Bin instant access with Premium Membership has been established we have never had a case of abuse. Not once. Also, don't underestimate the love, care, and personal time investment each of your staff members make in keeping up with forum activity and linking it to outside acts. Yes, we do it all the time because we care about protecting the community. If we find someone is abusing their privileges we remove them. It's not difficult to reason out that what we give we can also remove. 

  As far as asking "well if nothing is changing, why would someone pay"? I don't know, maybe because they want to support the site? Maybe because they want a private chat? Maybe they want instant Clearance Bin access? Whatever the many reasons people may have when they choose to subscribe the ultimate goal is to *ensure they have the choice*. No secret societies, no vague guidelines for access, no arbitrary standards that go against the nature of the site, and no "why was I left off the PM". A_ fair and level_ playing field. And one personal thing on this - I'm sorry but anyone who tells me that this wasn't meant to be an exclusive club was IN and obviously can not comprehend what it was like for the users who were "out" by post count or by pure apathy. Period. 

  The best, most beautiful, part of this whole thread is that _you're talking about how you feel_. Thank you for speaking up and making your voice heard. Together we can make beautiful changes to the site, shape it into a place we all want to be and where we all have a home. You are the smartest, prettiest, totally amazing group of people I know and you make me so proud to be here.


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## Richelle83 (Dec 12, 2013)

highheels said:


> Ajigglin and Richelle, I disagree. I recall discussions where members openly discussed whether only people with a certain post count should be privy to the code information, just like accessing the clearance bin. I recall one newbie in particular who was harshly criticized for asking about it on the same day she joined, everyone assumed the worst about her, it was terrible.


  Yep, I remember that too. I was again trying to explain the situation but it didn't matter how I explained the purpose and my position in this, people kept taking it personal. 

  Again, this is over and done with. We have a plan outlined and let's just see how it works out.


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## Ajigglin (Dec 12, 2013)

@missTT- I'm curious as to why you didn't feel welcome. You are certainly a valuable and contributing member, and everyone likes and appreciates you. Maybe your answer is the missing piece to the puzzle as to why people felt things were cliquey.


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## MissTT (Dec 12, 2013)

Janice said:


> I'm not sure how my original post was interpreted as fundamentally changing anything about the way the Color Collection forum currently works. That verbiage was not in the post and the forum is not fundamentally changing. Everyone can pick apart the idea until there are so many holes you can see right through it. It won't change the fact that we do not condone the current status quo of the Color Collection forum and are advocating change. The state of the Color Collections forum evolved on it's on and I'm not happy with the interactions I've witnessed, the PM's I've received (from NEW and OLD members alike!) and the members we've lost because they made the mistake of saying the "wrong thing" or because the tone of the Color Collections forum is no longer FUN and supportive like it used to be, rather now it can feel negative and snarky when the "drama" flares up.
> 
> However you approach it there is no perfect solution, and I for one am not going to advocate locking information up. That is the point I am trying to make. With the addition of this premium member perk you now have the CHOICE to chat in a private forum instead of trying to get navigate a social maze of who to contact and what to say. I've spoken with Richelle, the MAC Chat moderator, about it being a part of her moderating responsibility to share whatever PERTINENT release information (i.e. new collections) is shared in MAC Chat Premium. Specktra will still be your leading resource for MAC information regardless of if you choose to become a premium member because _THAT'S WHAT WE STAND FOR_. I would be a complete hypocrite if I had thought this through and accepted that it would cause the site to become pay for information. It's not who I am and it's not a direction I will willingly take the site in. In MAC Chat Premium will there be discussions that have information that you might not see in the public forum? Will someone maybe score a lipstick before you do because of something posted there? Sure! It's a private forum so people will talk more freely amongst themselves.
> 
> ...


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## Ajigglin (Dec 12, 2013)

Janice said:


> I'm not sure how my original post was interpreted as fundamentally changing anything about the way the Color Collection forum currently works. That verbiage was not in the post and the forum is not fundamentally changing. Everyone can pick apart the idea until there are so many holes you can see right through it. It won't change the fact that we do not condone the current status quo of the Color Collection forum and are advocating change. The state of the Color Collections forum evolved on it's on and I'm not happy with the interactions I've witnessed, the PM's I've received (from NEW and OLD members alike!) and the members we've lost because they made the mistake of saying the "wrong thing" or because the tone of the Color Collections forum is no longer FUN and supportive like it used to be, rather now it can feel negative and snarky when the "drama" flares up.   However you approach it there is no perfect solution, and I for one am not going to advocate locking information up. That is the point I am trying to make. With the addition of this premium member perk you now have the CHOICE to chat in a private forum instead of trying to get navigate a social maze of who to contact and what to say. I've spoken with Richelle, the MAC Chat moderator, about it being a part of her moderating responsibility to share whatever PERTINENT release information (i.e. new collections) is shared in MAC Chat Premium. Specktra will still be your leading resource for MAC information regardless of if you choose to become a premium member because _THAT'S WHAT WE STAND FOR_. I would be a complete hypocrite if I had thought this through and accepted that it would cause the site to become pay for information. It's not who I am and it's not a direction I will willingly take the site in. In MAC Chat Premium will there be discussions that have information that you might not see in the public forum? Will someone maybe score a lipstick before you do because of something posted there? Sure! It's a private forum so people will talk more freely amongst themselves.  The two step process of registration and payment WILL assist in diverting the 1% of the population that could POSSIBLY be resellers and the larger "lurking" population that concerns some members. The more personal information those who are up to nefarious ends have to give up the less likely they are to do it. I think it's important to understand the "lurkers" are makeup addicts NO DIFFERENT than you. Maybe they are a member of another board or blog and they don't want to make an account because a) they don't have to to see the information and b) they prefer their community but can't get the same info there. It's not your job to police the forum for the few who are looking to exploit, being suspicious, and making those who don't "contribute" to some arbitrary standard feel like they are unwanted! I personally feel the reselling thing is blown WAY out of proportion. However, I listen and I respect the fact that people would like a private place to chat.  Okay, so what about the concern there will be people who abuse the system? Sure, maybe it might happen. However, in the YEARS that the Clearance Bin instant access with Premium Membership has been established we have never had a case of abuse. Not once. Also, don't underestimate the love, care, and personal time investment each of your staff members make in keeping up with forum activity and linking it to outside acts. Yes, we do it all the time because we care about protecting the community. If we find someone is abusing their privileges we remove them. It's not difficult to reason out that what we give we can also remove.   As far as asking "well if nothing is changing, why would someone pay"? I don't know, maybe because they want to support the site? Maybe because they want a private chat? Maybe they want instant Clearance Bin access? Whatever the many reasons people may have when they choose to subscribe the ultimate goal is to *ensure they have the choice*. No secret societies, no vague guidelines for access, no arbitrary standards that go against the nature of the site, and no "why was I left off the PM". A_ fair and level_ playing field. And one personal thing on this - I'm sorry but anyone who tells me that this wasn't meant to be an exclusive club was IN and obviously can not comprehend what it was like for the users who were "out" by post count or by pure apathy. Period.   The best, most beautiful, part of this whole thread is that _you're talking about how you feel_. Thank you for speaking up and making your voice heard. Together we can make beautiful changes to the site, shape it into a place we all want to be and where we all have a home. You are the smartest, prettiest, totally amazing group of people I know and you make me so proud to be here.


   Thanks for the clarifications. You made a lot of excellent points. We will see what happens.


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## cocotears (Dec 12, 2013)

Janice said:


> I'm not sure how my original post was interpreted as fundamentally changing anything about the way the Color Collection forum currently works. That verbiage was not in the post and the forum is not fundamentally changing. Everyone can pick apart the idea until there are so many holes you can see right through it. It won't change the fact that we do not condone the current status quo of the Color Collection forum and are advocating change. The state of the Color Collections forum evolved on it's on and I'm not happy with the interactions I've witnessed, the PM's I've received (from NEW and OLD members alike!) and the members we've lost because they made the mistake of saying the "wrong thing" or because the tone of the Color Collections forum is no longer FUN and supportive like it used to be, rather now it can feel negative and snarky when the "drama" flares up.
> 
> However you approach it there is no perfect solution, and I for one am not going to advocate locking information up. That is the point I am trying to make. With the addition of this premium member perk you now have the CHOICE to chat in a private forum instead of trying to get navigate a social maze of who to contact and what to say. I've spoken with Richelle, the MAC Chat moderator, about it being a part of her moderating responsibility to share whatever PERTINENT release information (i.e. new collections) is shared in MAC Chat Premium. Specktra will still be your leading resource for MAC information regardless of if you choose to become a premium member because _THAT'S WHAT WE STAND FOR_. I would be a complete hypocrite if I had thought this through and accepted that it would cause the site to become pay for information. It's not who I am and it's not a direction I will willingly take the site in. In MAC Chat Premium will there be discussions that have information that you might not see in the public forum? Will someone maybe score a lipstick before you do because of something posted there? Sure! It's a private forum so people will talk more freely amongst themselves.
> 
> ...


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## misfitted (Dec 12, 2013)

AkeshialuvsMAC said:


> I see both sides but.... I am not payin for membership.  Because there isnt a substantial difference with both threads.  Give me something more and then I will re consider. Until then... i stand my ground


  I'm curious... how is it that you figure there is no substantial difference between the premium and regular threads, seeing as you have not been a part of the premium thread? I'm not sure how long the premium thread has been in effect but I feel it's way too early in the game to really measure the differences. At this point in time, it seems that all remaining MAC color collection info for 2013 has pretty much been available for a while. It will take some time before we can truly measure the differences between what is shared across both ends. And even then, only someone with access on both ends would be able to see said differences in action... if you only have access to the free threads, you'll only be able to speak to what is posted there, unless someone puts you in the know.


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## AkeshialuvsMAC (Dec 12, 2013)

misfitted said:


> I'm curious... how is it that you figure there is no substantial difference between the premium and regular threads, seeing as you have not been a part of the premium thread? I'm not sure how long the premium thread has been in effect but I feel it's way too early in the game to really measure the differences. At this point in time, it seems that all remaining MAC color collection info for 2013 has pretty much been available for a while. It will take some time before we can truly measure the differences between what is shared across both ends. And even then, only someone with access on both ends would be able to see said differences in action... if you only have access to the free threads, you'll only be able to speak to what is posted there, unless someone puts you in the know.


well im obviously going off the description of what the premium thread would entail.  One of the main things is the stress for privacy. But just like others asked and answered... in both threads for example ( color stories sightings and restocks) can and will be posted because there isnt any rule stating that someone cant do this as per Janice.  So y pay for it when u can get it for free. Like I said until I see a major difference in the description and perks of the premium mem. I dont see the point.... do u?


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## Dawn (Dec 12, 2013)

Quote:  Originally Posted by *Janice* 

   And one personal thing on this - I'm sorry but anyone who tells me that this wasn't meant to be an exclusive club was IN and obviously can not comprehend what it was like for the users who were "out" by post count or by pure apathy. Period. 




  Unfortunately, that is my thought on this as well.


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## CrimsonQuill157 (Dec 12, 2013)

Holstrom4 said:


> Unfortunately, that is my thought on this as well.


I agree with this. As I said before, I am relatively new, and any posts I saw about "codes" or "PM'ing" seemed like everything was VERY hush hush around it.


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## misfitted (Dec 12, 2013)

AkeshialuvsMAC said:


> well im obviously going off the description of what the premium thread would entail.  One of the main things is the stress for privacy. But just like others asked and answered... in both threads for example ( color stories sightings and restocks) can and will be posted because there isnt any rule stating that someone cant do this as per Janice.  So y pay for it when u can get it for free. Like I said until I see a major difference in the description and perks of the premium mem. I dont see the point.... do u?


  I think that is self explanatory. You missed my poin... what I am saying is how do YOU know premium thread info will be shared in the free thread? Have you seen it happen already or are you just assuming that it will? I'm not doubting that some things will make it over that way, but we have yet to see this actually play out... And we don't know who is sharing in the premium threads or what and when they plan on sharing in the free threads.


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## AkeshialuvsMAC (Dec 12, 2013)

misfitted said:


> I think that is self explanatory. You missed my poin... what I am saying is how do YOU know premium thread info will be shared in the free thread? Have you seen it happen already or are you just assuming that it will? I'm not doubting that some things will make it over that way, but we have yet to see this actually play out... And we don't know who is sharing in the premium threads or what and when they plan on sharing in the free threads.


HYPOTHETICALLY.but those r some of the things that I am referring too because its common sense concern.


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## misfitted (Dec 12, 2013)

AkeshialuvsMAC said:


> HYPOTHETICALLY.but those r some of the things that I am referring too because its common sense concern.


  Well I suppose only time will tell... Or if folks in the free threads begin to complain of a lack of info floating around lol.


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## highheels (Dec 12, 2013)

AkeshialuvsMAC said:


> but doesn't that seem suspect to u? People continually do it. So maybe we should just blast every restock.... lets see who gets anything... smh


  Suspect in what way?  Why all the paranoia and suspicion?  I think she was a makeup lover like the rest of us and made the unfortunate mistake of joining a forum when drama and paranoia and hostility were running high, and was subsequently chased away when some people openly questioned her character and reasons for being here. It was insulting and embarrassing to watch it unfold.   We were not ALL newbies at one point? Did anyone question your motives for joining or, the timing of it?  Why not assume the best about people until such time as there is evidence and facts to say otherwise?  I want everyone to get their items just as much as the next person, but to assume the worst about someone simply because of the timing of when they joined is ignorant and unfair.  I'm not saying you personally did that, but others certainly did, and openly.  Not all newbies and lurkers are here to deprive you of your goodies, ladies and gents.


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## AkeshialuvsMAC (Dec 12, 2013)

misfitted said:


> Well I suppose only time will tell... Or if folks in the free threads begin to complain of a lack of info floating around lol.


lol yes we will see..time will tell


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## boujoischic (Dec 12, 2013)

I won't beat a dead horse a lot has been explained in this thread and my original question was answered. I feel like the RiRi collections brought this to head people were really upset about not getting items and the competition the collections being extremely limited caused. Whether we agree with it or not the premium chat section is there now and we just have to wait and see how this pans out.


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## AkeshialuvsMAC (Dec 12, 2013)

highheels said:


> Suspect in what way?  Why all the paranoia and suspicion?  I think she was a makeup lover like the rest of us and made the unfortunate mistake of joining a forum when drama and paranoia and hostility were running high, and was subsequently chased away when some people openly questioned her character and reasons for being here. It was insulting and embarrassing to watch it unfold.   We were not ALL newbies at one point? Did anyone question your motives for joining or, the timing of it?  Why not assume the best about people until such time as there is evidence and facts to say otherwise?  I want everyone to get their items just as much as the next person, but to assume the worst about someone simply because of the timing of when they joined is ignorant and unfair.  I'm not saying you personally did that, but others certainly did, and openly.  Not all newbies and lurkers are here to deprive you of your goodies, ladies and gents.


maybe..


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## AkeshialuvsMAC (Dec 12, 2013)

boujoischic said:


> I won't beat a dead horse a lot has been explained in this thread and my original question was answered. Whether we agree or not the premium section is there now and we just have to see how this pans out. I feel like the RiRi collections brought this to head people were really upset about not getting items and the competition the collections being extremely limited caused.


yup yup


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## Haven (Dec 12, 2013)

I want to thank Janice & the mods for coming up with a possible solution for what has been happening. The MAC portion of this site is not what it used to be.  I am hoping that these changes will help the site "get its old feel" back.  I miss it.


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## Medgal07 (Dec 12, 2013)

Ajigglin said:


> I responded to the poll and voted that we conduct this the way we do the Clearance Bin. Last I checked, it had the most votes. Why wasn't that chosen as a solution?


 THIS!!!!


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## Naynadine (Dec 12, 2013)

Richelle83 said:


> Sorry but NO. The whole point of the code system AND pm'ng people was to keep the restock information in house.
> 
> A member PM'd me about a system. I intern mulled it over and decided ON MY OWN to send this information to people as I saw them post or as I had time to, this was to see if we needed to tweak the idea or figure something else out. There are THOUSANDS of people on here and hundreds who post at any given time. Some people just don't seem to understand that this wasn't an exclusive club, no one had to be a long time member. THERE WAS NO CRITERIA. I missed tons of people, some new, some long term members. Right before Rihanna's Fall collection came out for the dept stores the word was spread by me and several other members to anyone who asked, many just went ahead and pm'd me and others. When people felt they had missed out they didn't pm me or someone else they immediately said "is there some club I have to be apart of to get the info?" That is how this mess all started
> 
> ...


  Exactly. But of course it's easier to complain and get offended than to actually do something yourself and write a PM.


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## highheels (Dec 12, 2013)

Medgal07 said:


> [COLOR=0000FF]   I read and comprehended the original post.  I was compelled to provide a semblance of clarity about a specific matter. Things transpired that[/COLOR] [COLOR=0000FF]   based on your remarks to _*me*_ specifically, you were not and remain unaware of. Thank you.  [/COLOR]  [COLOR=0000FF]  Now about the code---me choir, you preacher. I was off-line for several days. Upon my return I saw all the chatter about 'the code.'  I didn't[/COLOR] [COLOR=0000FF]  shrink into a corner or against a wall waiting to be asked to dance.  Rather, I two-stepped over to a fellow member and asked.  I was given[/COLOR] [COLOR=0000FF]  an [/COLOR][COLOR=0000FF]answer.  This is an imperfect system with a lot of incredibly nice people who just want it to work.  Best we focus on that! [/COLOR]    [COLOR=0000FF]THIS!!!![/COLOR]


  You're still completely missing the point... I DID ask someone for the code and I did get it. However, we are talking about the PERCEPTION (is anyone with me here?) that was created by the fact that only certain people of unknown criteria were deemed worthy enough to receive in the first place!  It has nothing to do with asking anyone for it or being a wallflower (??).  As Janice already pointed out, those who were IN, such as yourself, cannot seem to comprehend what it was like for those who were out. I am advocating for those who felt slighted or left out.  Anyway, this is my final post on the topic because you're just not getting it.


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## Naynadine (Dec 12, 2013)

CrimsonQuill157 said:


> I agree with this. As I said before, I am relatively new, and any posts I saw about "codes" or "PM'ing" seemed like everything was VERY hush hush around it.
> 
> Quote:  Originally Posted by *highheels*
> 
> ...


  I don't think there was an ''in'' and ''out''. If you wanted to know what it was about you just had to ask! I asked and immediately had PMs from more than one member. There wasn't that much to it.


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## CrimsonQuill157 (Dec 12, 2013)

Medgal07 said:


> Now about the code---me choir, you preacher. I was off-line for several days. Upon my return I saw all the chatter about 'the code.'  I didn't   shrink into a corner or against a wall waiting to be asked to dance.  Rather, I two-stepped over to a fellow member and asked.  I was given
> an answer.  This is an imperfect system with a lot of incredibly nice people who just want it to work.  Best we focus on that!


  That is wonderful, but you are clearly not a new member. As a new member, I would not feel comfortable asking someone about it, as I saw the posts about it and they seemed completely exclusionary. I am not saying they are, but that is how they seemed. Also, based on the posts in this thread of the people who are "in" I would certainly NOT feel comfortable PM'ing a member for information. Call me a "wall flower" all you want to. The hostility in this thread is insane.


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## kimbunney (Dec 12, 2013)

highheels said:


> You're still completely missing the point... I DID ask someone for the code and I did get it. However, we are talking about the PERCEPTION (is anyone with me here?) that was created by the fact that only certain people of unknown criteria were deemed worthy enough to receive in the first place!  It has nothing to do with asking anyone for it or being a wallflower (??).  As Janice already pointed out, those who were IN, such as yourself, cannot seem to comprehend what it was like for those who were out. I am advocating for those who felt slighted or left out.  Anyway, this is my final post on the topic because you're just not getting it.


  I completely agree. The PM thing creates a negative vibe. I don't know how you can explain it any other way. It's not about who got the PM it's really about certain people being so negative about information being shared publicly when it's a forum to discuss and share.


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## Naynadine (Dec 12, 2013)

CrimsonQuill157 said:


> That is wonderful, but you are clearly not a new member. As a new member, I would not feel comfortable asking someone about it, as I saw the posts about it and they seemed completely exclusionary. I am not saying they are, but that is how they seemed. *Also, based on the posts in this thread of the people who are "in" I would certainly NOT feel comfortable PM'ing a member for information. Call me a "wall flower" all you want to. The hostility in this thread is insane.*


  Really? I don't think that's true. It angers me a little to be honest to read this. If you would have spent some time here and read posts from poeple like Medgal, ElegantOne and a lot of other friendly members you would know that there isn't any reason to feel uncomfortable as a new member.

  I really don't want to attack anyone, I'm happy about every single new member who wants to share their love of makeup here, but coming on here and complaining without even taking the time to get familiar with everything and the members, isn't fair at all.


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## boujoischic (Dec 12, 2013)

Naynadine said:


> Really? I don't think that's true. It angers me a little to be honest to read this. If you would have spent some time here and read posts from poeple like Medgal, ElegantOne and a lot of other friendly members you would know that there isn't any reason to feel uncomfortable as a new member.  I really don't want to attack anyone, I'm happy about every single new member who wants to share their love of makeup here, but coming on here and complaining without even taking the time to get familiar with everything and the members, isn't fair at all.


 I agree with you Medgal And ElegantOne are 2 of the nicest ladies you could meet on the site.


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## Audrey C (Dec 12, 2013)

I've been here awhile, and while I didn't complain I did find some of the comments offensive. From everyone? Certainly not. From some? Definitely.

  I know that the code started with no ill intent, but let's not rewrite history. People were publicly chastised for committing the cardinal sin of sharing that a collection is up (public information). As Janice has said, this is not against forum rules. Here's an example:

"*There's a couple people who have been asked to not blurt it out on the threads and continue to do so anyways so if that's not being malicious then it's definitely being an attention you know what."*
*"Rhymes with door."*
*"LOL"*

Boy, I know that would make me feel welcome to contribute. As for everyone just getting the code when they asked for it, that didn't happen either.

"Oh my gosh my inbox has been flooded with information on the code. Lol
I will be going through and responding.* This is going to sound so unfair but I think the rule is if you have little forum posts or recently made an account you're considered a red flag and can't get the code."*

I agree that it sounds unfair to be 'considered a red flag'. Because it was.


Whether anyone intended for others to feel excluded or  not, people did and that's legitimate. There were comments made that fostered that. Of course people will know whether or not that's what they intended, but no one gets to decide how other people should have felt about that.

I hope we can all move on and enjoy the site in accordance with the principles Janice has outlined and our own preferences. I like that people have a more restricted area to share information or swatches if they wish. I'm more than happy to share whatever information I have, so I'll continue to post in the regular session. That includes mentioning when I see a collection up and sharing my impressions.

I really enjoy this site and appreciate these changes.


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## Medgal07 (Dec 12, 2013)

MissTT said:


> *Medgal - What you're saying and what Janice is addressing are, I think, two different animals*. I feel like this mentality started when Belk was coming up on the scene as an online provider of MAC collections. There started the fussing of not naming the site and posters calling it the secret site. People were definitely chastised for typing the word Belk. Not MAC. Not Nordstrom. Not Bloomingdales. Not even Dillards. But Belk. From there it has seemed to escalate into not posting where you purchased an item period. A few people started the chastising and now many more people, including new posters strangely, have jumped into the fray like a pack. The MAC threads - specifically RiRi collections - have become a really nasty place. (And not only for the above situation. That's another conversation to have over a glass bottle of wine.) It's so nasty that I don't even like to post there. And when I don't want to post there I don't want to read there. When I don't feel like reading I stop visiting the site. When I stop visiting the site... This is how great forums die. I've witnessed it several times before. Nastiness drives away the good members. The ones you actually want to meet in real life. The ones you call friends. They leave quietly, but they certainly leave.
> 
> I can think of at least 5 contributing members including myself who've been here over a year and were not privy to the MAC-Sellers-Code-Club. I was away for three days and came back to talk of "The Code" distributed via PM (or Facebook - I honestly don't know how it went down.) I'm not one to beg people to like me or be my friend so when I didn't get contacted it was clear this group wasn't intended for me. Who do I look like asking if I can sit at the popular girls' table? I didn't feel comfortable or welcome to ask about it. Despite being a daily poster it appeared I hadn't earned my stripes, wasn't in the right clique, or didn't kiss enough butts. A month or so later I was having a positive conversation with a person who knew about the code and after lots of PMing about another topic I finally asked her about it and she told me. *While I know I could have PMd several people here and they would have immediately given me the information I did not feel comfortable doing so because I did not feel welcome. It's not in my personality to impose myself onto a group that sends a shred of evidence that they may not want me.*


  You think MissTT???  Of course they are.  No refutation about that.  But this is how it starts---someone comes along and decides to opine about a matter that started 10 pages ago--without the benefit of reading from the beginning.  I agree that the MAC threads have become particularly venomous, and thus distasteful and unbecoming of any one in a civilized society.  And if someone diverts from makeup chat (guilty) and flashes an occasional photo of a child/cat/dog so be it.  I'd sooner indulge that, then how many MUAs or CSs someone cussed out because MAC sold out of product.

MissTT, I think no one was keeping up with who's present or not---an impossible task.  You know how quickly the threads can progress--within minutes.  I was off-line too and came back to see the chatter about a code.  I didn't assume the posture of not being included for any reason other than I was not around, so I asked the question and I was given the answer.  You admit above that you could have done the same thing.


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## Medgal07 (Dec 12, 2013)

CrimsonQuill157 said:


> That is wonderful, but you are clearly not a new member. As a new member, I would not feel comfortable asking someone about it, as I saw the posts about it and they seemed completely exclusionary. I am not saying they are, but that is how they seemed. Also, based on the posts in this thread of the people who are "in" I would certainly NOT feel comfortable PM'ing a member for information. Call me a "wall flower" all you want to. The hostility in this thread is insane.


   Well then I'm genuinely sorry you feel that way.  I am not a hostile person and have gone out of my way to help others AND to join in.  I wasn't calling YOU a wall flower but really meant it in an analogous way however, if the tulip fits...*throws hand over mouth.  I'm sorry I must be one of the silliest people on Specktra--harmless.  No one invited me "in" and I don't feel "in".  I just chat with people and they chat back and we have harmless banter---it didn't happen overnight, but I made an effort.  Don't condemn us---just join us.


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## shellygrrl (Dec 12, 2013)

Naynadine said:


> I don't remember seeing the Premium Membership being mentioned there as a solution, I don't think there was talk about a $100 fee.


  I remember Janice brought it up when we admins and mods were discussing all this. Some Specktraites had suggested a small fee for a premium MAC section, and she suggested that it made no sense and that it was easier to add it on as a perk of Premium Membership, and I agreed with that.  I also noted that I didn't believe there would be an easy solution, overall.  $100 fee has nothing to do with the issue, though. It's completely optional and a way for members to make a one-time donation and have permanent Premium status. That's it.  





Medgal07 said:


> [COLOR=0000FF]You admit above that you could have done the same thing.[/COLOR]


  She didn't because she felt uncomfortable doing so, and she isn't the only one who has said as much. Please stop being dismissive and try to understand how it was for _them_.


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## sheROCKS (Dec 12, 2013)

Honestly, I'm not sure how this premium thing will work out but I've been on different forums before and I don't understand why that MAC section isn't set to private. Make people work for it if they really want the information. 20 posts or so isn't hard to get. People complain about it but I think the solution would be to just set it to private so people will be forced to join Specktra and have to post to see the information. Yeah, you'll get more people joining and then quit but that's why you filter them if they don't post after a certain amount of time. Also, although I like reading and seeing that people have other interests and its cool to talk to one another about the same interests, it makes the threads HUGE and kind of useless. I don't have the time to read every since post and its annoying when its not related to the topic. 

  That's my two cents.


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## Beautybuyer (Dec 12, 2013)

Audrey C said:


> I've been here awhile, and while I didn't complain I did find some of the comments offensive. From everyone? Certainly not. From some? Definitely.  I know that the code started with no ill intent, but let's not rewrite history. People were publicly chastised for committing the cardinal sin of sharing that a collection is up (public information). As Janice has said, this is not against forum rules. Here's an example:


   First of all, we're aloud to talk and say what we want on here for the most part. We're not little children here we don't need to be censored. There are people on here who risk their jobs giving info and talking about release dates so no a lot of us respect that and like our little community and want certain things to stay within contributing members as friends. We all know there's lots of Lurkers here. If we want to try and keep things private what's really wrong with it? Does no one keep secrets with their friends? It wasn't intended for people who want to contribute as that was mention a ton of times, though you didn't quote that. I feel like posts like this start drama or continue old drama. You only included negative comments but failed to quote any that explained things and so on. If we want to crack jokes, really who cares. I usually try to keep it cool but seriously a post like this is seriously drama filled.   This is to figure out a way to keep things more exclusive so obviously it's a problem on this site, though I think you're missing that point.


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## CartoonChic (Dec 12, 2013)

Audrey C said:


> Thank you, Janice. This approach makes perfect sense to me. I like it a lot.
> 
> *If I buy a membership, it will simply be to support the site I enjoy.*


  That's basically my reason for getting a membership. To support the site. I don't really care about having a private section or not. I suspect that I'll spend the bulk of my time in the free section anyway.


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## Medgal07 (Dec 12, 2013)

shellygrrl said:


> She didn't because she felt uncomfortable doing so, and she isn't the only one who has said as much. Please stop being dismissive and try to understand how it was for _them_.


    MissTT and I happen to be friends, and we chat daily.  If she wants to elaborate on her feelings to me, trust me, _she'll_ do so.


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## captodometer (Dec 12, 2013)

I've been a member of this site for 7.5 years. Some months I post a lot, some months I don't post anything at all. I do know that  I would never pay for a premium membership, as most of the info provided here is available elsewhere for free  if i"m willing to to take the time and look for it.  I would miss the WOC forum, but there's no way I would pay for anything on this site.


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## CartoonChic (Dec 12, 2013)

MissTT said:


> Medgal - What you're saying and what Janice is addressing are, I think, two different animals. I feel like this mentality started when Belk was coming up on the scene as an online provider of MAC collections. There started the fussing of not naming the site and posters calling it the secret site. People were definitely chastised for typing the word Belk. Not MAC. Not Nordstrom. Not Bloomingdales. Not even Dillards. But Belk. From there it has seemed to escalate into not posting where you purchased an item period. A few people started the chastising and now many more people, including new posters strangely, have jumped into the fray like a pack. The MAC threads - specifically RiRi collections - have become a really nasty place. (And not only for the above situation. That's another conversation to have over a glass bottle of wine.) It's so nasty that I don't even like to post there. And when I don't want to post there I don't want to read there. When I don't feel like reading I stop visiting the site. When I stop visiting the site... This is how great forums die. I've witnessed it several times before. Nastiness drives away the good members. The ones you actually want to meet in real life. The ones you call friends. They leave quietly, but they certainly leave.
> 
> *I can think of at least 5 contributing members including myself who've been here over a year and were not privy to the MAC-Sellers-Code-Club. I was away for three days and came back to talk of "The Code" distributed via PM (or Facebook - I honestly don't know how it went down.)* I'm not one to beg people to like me or be my friend so when I didn't get contacted it was clear this group wasn't intended for me. Who do I look like asking if I can sit at the popular girls' table? I didn't feel comfortable or welcome to ask about it. Despite being a daily poster it appeared I hadn't earned my stripes, wasn't in the right clique, or didn't kiss enough butts. A month or so later I was having a positive conversation with a person who knew about the code and after lots of PMing about another topic I finally asked her about it and she told me. While I know I could have PMd several people here and they would have immediately given me the information I did not feel comfortable doing so because I did not feel _welcome_. It's not in my personality to impose myself onto a group that sends a shred of evidence that they may not want me.
> 
> ...


  I caught up on all the posts in this thread. Wow. It got heated in here.

  I agree with MissTT. I haven't been in the MAC threads much lately because the atmosphere has changed. Nowadays I spend most of my time in non-MAC threads. I became a member only last year, and there is a definite difference. The environment isn't as friendly or as open as I remember. I decided to pop my head into the RiRi Holiday thread earlier this week to enjoy a good ol' stalking party like I did in the past. It just wasn't the same. Instead of the jokes, half asleep silliness and discussions about what we're going to do when we get our makeup; there was more drama, bickering, and insults. The virtual slumber party with my fellow makeup addicts that I remember so fondly seemed to have disappeared.

  I also knew nothing of this new code system, (nor would I care to know as that's just too much for me) and was completely confused when I saw posts about the collection releasing at JCPenney, Sears, etc. I was thinking to myself, "when did those stores start carrying MAC?! Have I been away from the threads that long?" I asked MissTT what in the world was going on, and she explained it to me. I couldn't believe it. It seemed like anyone who didn't adhere to this new code were chastised and berated for not doing so. I don't like drama or negativity and will opt to just remove myself from those type of situations. Hopefully things will start to move in a more positive direction going forward.


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## CartoonChic (Dec 13, 2013)

I just thought of a possible incentive to include with the Premium Membership. I know there are many members, including myself, who have blogs, websites, YouTube pages and things that they would like to promote. Maybe a Premium Membership could also include some form of advertisement option if we wanted it. I know we can already mention things in our signatures for free, but maybe we could have some sort of thumbnail ad included under our profile pic or something of the like. Just an idea.


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## Vandekamp (Dec 13, 2013)

Audrey C said:


> I've been here awhile, and while I didn't complain I did find some of the comments offensive. From everyone? Certainly not. From some? Definitely.  I know that the code started with no ill intent, but let's not rewrite history. People were publicly chastised for committing the cardinal sin of sharing that a collection is up (public information). As Janice has said, this is not against forum rules. Here's an example:


  Amen. Enough said. Thank you for providing exampls of posts that some may have forgotten. @ Highheels and @Cartoon Chic I support the case you made 100%. Perception can become reality. Many folks did feel left out. I recall one day when as many as 8-9 people, one person after another, requested to have access to the "code." Those folks (I'm sure there were dozens more) could not understand why they had not received it. Like Highheels said. If you were in the club and serving as the gatekeeper of the code you would not understand the point @Highheels made so elegantly.


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## Lalalish (Dec 13, 2013)

When I signed up, I bought a $15.00 membership just because I wanted to help support this site.  I like Specktra & the different Forums. I'm a "Newbie" and understand that people stick together after they've been communicating so long, but I have never felt shunned or kept out of the "Loop". I look at pictures and I am constantly learning something new! I'm sorry that it has come down to this. But Thank You ALL for creating and contributing to this site. I don't feel & now know that I am not alone in my "Addiction"!! :urock:


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## BeautyByLele (Dec 13, 2013)

Janice said:


> I'm not sure how my original post was interpreted as fundamentally changing anything about the way the Color Collection forum currently works. That verbiage was not in the post and the forum is not fundamentally changing. Everyone can pick apart the idea until there are so many holes you can see right through it. It won't change the fact that we do not condone the current status quo of the Color Collection forum and are advocating change. The state of the Color Collections forum evolved on it's on and I'm not happy with the interactions I've witnessed, the PM's I've received (from NEW and OLD members alike!) and the members we've lost because they made the mistake of saying the "wrong thing" or because the tone of the Color Collections forum is no longer FUN and supportive like it used to be, rather now it can feel negative and snarky when the "drama" flares up.   However you approach it there is no perfect solution, and I for one am not going to advocate locking information up. That is the point I am trying to make. *With the addition of this premium member perk you now have the CHOICE to chat in a private forum instead of trying to get navigate a social maze of who to contact and what to say. I've spoken with Richelle, the MAC Chat moderator, about it being a part of her moderating responsibility to share whatever PERTINENT release information (i.e. new collections) is shared in MAC Chat Premium. *Specktra will still be your leading resource for MAC information regardless of if you choose to become a premium member because _THAT'S WHAT WE STAND FOR_. I would be a complete hypocrite if I had thought this through and accepted that it would cause the site to become pay for information. It's not who I am and it's not a direction I will willingly take the site in. In MAC Chat Premium will there be discussions that have information that you might not see in the public forum? Will someone maybe score a lipstick before you do because of something posted there? Sure! It's a private forum so people will talk more freely amongst themselves.  The two step process of registration and payment WILL assist in diverting the 1% of the population that could POSSIBLY be resellers and the larger "lurking" population that concerns some members. The more personal information those who are up to nefarious ends have to give up the less likely they are to do it. I think it's important to understand the "lurkers" are makeup addicts NO DIFFERENT than you. Maybe they are a member of another board or blog and they don't want to make an account because a) they don't have to to see the information and b) they prefer their community but can't get the same info there. It's not your job to police the forum for the few who are looking to exploit, being suspicious, and making those who don't "contribute" to some arbitrary standard feel like they are unwanted! I personally feel the reselling thing is blown WAY out of proportion. However, I listen and I respect the fact that people would like a private place to chat.  Okay, so what about the concern there will be people who abuse the system? Sure, maybe it might happen. However, in the YEARS that the Clearance Bin instant access with Premium Membership has been established we have never had a case of abuse. Not once. Also, don't underestimate the love, care, and personal time investment each of your staff members make in keeping up with forum activity and linking it to outside acts. Yes, we do it all the time because we care about protecting the community. If we find someone is abusing their privileges we remove them. It's not difficult to reason out that what we give we can also remove.   As far as asking "well if nothing is changing, why would someone pay"? I don't know, maybe because they want to support the site? Maybe because they want a private chat? Maybe they want instant Clearance Bin access? Whatever the many reasons people may have when they choose to subscribe the ultimate goal is to *ensure they have the choice*. No secret societies, no vague guidelines for access, no arbitrary standards that go against the nature of the site, and no "why was I left off the PM". A_ fair and level_ playing field. And one personal thing on this - I'm sorry but anyone who tells me that this wasn't meant to be an exclusive club was IN and obviously can not comprehend what it was like for the users who were "out" by post count or by pure apathy. Period.   The best, most beautiful, part of this whole thread is that _you're talking about how you feel_. Thank you for speaking up and making your voice heard. Together we can make beautiful changes to the site, shape it into a place we all want to be and where we all have a home. You are the smartest, prettiest, totally amazing group of people I know and you make me so proud to be here.


  I haven't decided if I'm going to pay for a membership... Yet !!! But what might stop me is that which I bolded.   If that area is going to be private... Why would info being shared there (private area) be subjected to be released in the free chat? Shouldn't whatever is discussed in the private area remain private? Isn't that the purpose of having a private area?   For example if someone post early swatches of a collection in the private section and then the mods/or someone else post those same swatches in the "free " area.... Doesn't that go against the reason behind the private area?


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## Janice (Dec 13, 2013)

@beautybylele I was referring more to news items than normal day to day posts from members.


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## BeautyByLele (Dec 13, 2013)

Okay, Janice thanks for the clarification!


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## MissTT (Dec 13, 2013)

shellygrrl said:


> She didn't because she felt uncomfortable doing so, and she isn't the only one who has said as much. Please stop being dismissive and try to understand how it was for _them_.


  I _could _have done the same thing as you, but I'm not you. I can't make you understand how it feels to be me. An entire history of my life experience goes into my thought processes. I have to agree with shellygrrl your comment feels dismissive. Your experiences are not the same as mine so implying I should respond exactly as you would/did is insentient. The good news is we're cool so no hard feelings about it. I believe you wouldn't intentionally treat me badly. We just have differing perspectives.


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## AkeshialuvsMAC (Dec 13, 2013)

BeautyByLele said:


> I haven't decided if I'm going to pay for a membership... Yet !!! But what might stop me is that which I bolded.   If that area is going to be private... Why would info being shared there (private area) be subjected to be released in the free chat? Shouldn't whatever is discussed in the private area remain private? Isn't that the purpose of having a private area?   For example if someone post early swatches of a collection in the private section and then the mods/or someone else post those same swatches in the "free " area.... Doesn't that go against the reason behind the private area?


I basically asked the same. Janice said there is no restrictions on the same info being posted both places


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## BeautyByLele (Dec 13, 2013)

AkeshialuvsMAC said:


> BeautyByLele said:
> 
> 
> > I haven't decided if I'm going to pay for a membership... Yet !!! But what might stop me is that which I bolded.   If that area is going to be private... Why would info being shared there (private area) be subjected to be released in the free chat? Shouldn't whatever is discussed in the private area remain private? Isn't that the purpose of having a private area?   For example if someone post early swatches of a collection in the private section and then the mods/or someone else post those same swatches in the "free " area.... Doesn't that go against the reason behind the private area?
> ...


  Thanks girl , I guess we will just have to give it some time and see how it plays out !!!


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## Medgal07 (Dec 13, 2013)

MissTT said:


> That's really kind of you to say, Ajigglin. The truth is everyone does not like and appreciate me (just as I feel about some people here) so in my mind there stood the possibility that my exclusion was intentional.
> I always laugh when I read posts saying there are no cliques here. Of course there are cliques. I'm in some. We all interact with certain people more regularly and intensely than we do others on this forum.
> 
> I _could _have done the same thing as you, but I'm not you. I can't make you understand how it feels to be me. An entire history of my life experience goes into my thought processes. I have to agree with shellygrrl your comment feels dismissive. Your experiences are not the same as mine so implying I should respond exactly as you would/did is insentient. The good news is we're cool so no hard feelings about it. I believe you wouldn't intentionally treat me badly. We just have differing perspectives.


  Exactly MissTT--we are cool 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





and I meant you no harm in my comments.  *I apologize*. I guess over time 
   I've misread your demeanor as being tough, as some of your remarks have been less than sensitive---water
   under the bridge at this point.  I guess that's the down side of text messaging--one can't see the sentiment 
   behind the words as one would be able to face-face.  I'd like to move on from here and get back to what I'm 
   here to do---have fun discussing makeup.  I'll be in those threads and not returning to this one.


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## chicascouture (Dec 13, 2013)

Audrey C said:


> I've been here awhile, and while I didn't complain I did find some of the comments offensive. From everyone? Certainly not. From some? Definitely.
> 
> I know that the code started with no ill intent, but let's not rewrite history. People were publicly chastised for committing the cardinal sin of sharing that a collection is up (public information). As Janice has said, this is not against forum rules. Here's an example:


  Audrey completely agree!!!!


  I have only been a member for maybe a month or so. I had read threads on specktra before but never subscried or commented on anything. Why you might ask? Well i am a shy person but lets be honest here not event the shiest of people would be comfortable with the negativity that happens with in the threads. I do not know if it was just because of the riri collection but honestly if someone wants to find out information they will. Not a code or not PMing people (which by the way I did PM a few people and was not helped at all) will keep someone from obtaining information. Honestly, im glad AUDREY C showed those quotes from the riri thread because when I read them a few days ago, I felt that as a newbie I was not WORTHY of obtaining information. Luckily, I AM A SMART women who knows better then to believe SEARS, JCPENNY, KOHL'S. ETC...., would sell MAC cosmetics. I understand that it was done for the intention to lure lurkers in the wrong direction but I for see it as something done maliciously to people with little knowledge of MAC who want something from the collection. I also find it disturbing that members of spectra would not share information about the launches online TO NEWBIES yet they would post that they got c*onfirmation of there 6 order*. Come one seriously???? People are worried about ebay but are not smart enough to see that there own people with over 3,000 post have bought all the stock available. I find it disturbing to be honest. I guess that for my first experience with a chat/forum ALL I saw/read was negative things about people. I guess people only get offended when they get called out on things the irony of it all.

  The premium membership might work and might not but that is how things are tested out. People might pay and might not. People will do what they want to do. But honestly YOU CANT MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY. It is impossible, there are to many different personalities to please everyone.


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## allthingsglam (Dec 13, 2013)

Wow just wow I'm going to say this because I like to keep things short and sweet when the pm system come out I thought it was a wonderful idea I asked to be in the know and four people contacted me right away to let me know.what I don't like is when someone who is brand new signed up the day of a release like  pm me for this can I know that I'm like what. see me personally I'm not going to respond to those I don't get MADD i just skip over it and keep reading I have everyday life to be worry about someone who I know I may never see post again to police them when I first joined I have been welcome with open arms I love specktra I personally love the vets because they been doing this for a long time I love to know thier insight to know whats really going on


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## JJJewels (Dec 13, 2013)

CartoonChic said:


> I just thought of a possible incentive to include with the Premium Membership. I know there are many members, including myself, who have blogs, websites, YouTube pages and things that they would like to promote. Maybe a Premium Membership could also include some form of advertisement option if we wanted it. I know we can already mention things in our signatures for free, but maybe we could have some sort of thumbnail ad included under our profile pic or something of the like. Just an idea.


  Now THIS I would pay for. I was trying to figure out what the value for me as a copywriter for beauty brands (and a beauty blogger in my off hours). If there was a place I could do link swaps, contact legit bloggers and also pimp my site out, I'd pay for that.


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## hoshiakari_ (Dec 15, 2013)

I haven't been on Specktra as much as I have been in the past because of all the drama going on in the MAC threads. Of course, I'd still buy a membership to support the site because this place has been the biggest fountain of information I could have ever hoped to find and have, even more so than some popular beauty blogger sites.
Unfortunately, I feel like thanks to the over hyped collections brings out the worst in some people and that's one of the biggest reasons I haven't posted as much. As a matter of fact, I've even stopped reading the threads with all the drama in them. Before when I wanted to catch up with a thread, I'd read through the 20-30 pages with no problem, but now with so much bickering I simply click the little 'x' on that tab. Not only that, but with the way some people demonize lurkers. I will proudly label myself a lurker and not once have I ever sold anything on ebay nor have I expected anybody to PM me with collection or launch information. Not going to lie, I felt a little left out (probably because I'm a lurker and don't post as much, or hell, at all) but not once did I take it the wrong way. I certainly understand how the PMing came to be, but it was the way that it was carried out that I didn't appreciate, especially for the newer members. 
But back to the lurker bit. I know that is a place for people who love makeup to come together and talk about it. It's only natural that friendship blossoms between people and it's even more natural to want to talk about what's going on in our lives, etc. I'm a pretty private person myself and if I have nothing to contribute or add to a conversation, I simply keep quiet and continue on my merry way. It's incredibly off-putting to see people bashing lurkers and it's another reason that keeps me from posting and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. Even if I did reach out to the people who're doing this, at the end of the day, they probably won't change their point of view just because one person and hey, can't force nor do I expect them to. 




Change is only natural and the best thing we can do is embrace it.
Anyway... just my


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## 5upern0v4 (Dec 16, 2013)

I just came here to say that if I was someone who regularly purchased limited edition lipsticks at 15$ and sold them on eBay for 80$+ , 45$/year would only be a small business expense.


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## brunettespylove (Dec 16, 2013)

thank you for this post. I am new here and have not felt like posting much due to the nature of the postings from certain people. Such as getting berated when asking a Question that might have been asked before, seeing as the threads are always 100pgs long


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## keridabeenfabb (Dec 16, 2013)

highheels said:


> Suspect in what way?  Why all the paranoia and suspicion?  I think she was a makeup lover like the rest of us and made the unfortunate mistake of joining a forum when drama and paranoia and hostility were running high, and was subsequently chased away when some people openly questioned her character and reasons for being here. It was insulting and embarrassing to watch it unfold.   We were not ALL newbies at one point? Did anyone question your motives for joining or, the timing of it?  Why not assume the best about people until such time as there is evidence and facts to say otherwise?  I want everyone to get their items just as much as the next person, but to assume the worst about someone simply because of the timing of when they joined is ignorant and unfair.  I'm not saying you personally did that, but others certainly did, and openly.  Not all newbies and lurkers are here to deprive you of your goodies, ladies and gents.


 my goodness thanks so much for this! I'm a newbie and I think  this speaks for a lot of us!!


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## valkolak (Dec 21, 2013)

I disagree with this.  You haven't removed any clique problem; you've created a clique of members who can afford to have a membership.  Count me out.


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## User38 (Dec 21, 2013)

I assume this is for the MAC threads?  this kinda reminds me of the old days when the bickering and pestering got out of control.  This made me stay out a lot too.  Frankly, my ;personal life was a mess -- and coming into a battlefield was not what I needed or wanted. Somehow it settled down but it's just human nature sometimes .. and the MAC threads move too rapidly.  

  I try to stay out of MAC threads especially for the new releases -- people forget, IT's JUST MAKEUP!!


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## joanita (Dec 25, 2013)

Thank you for trying to bring peace and revive what used to be a fun atmosphere.


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## SlugPower (Dec 28, 2013)

I have tried getting into MAC due to all the hype (when the flagship store opened in my country) but the sale assistants were horrible (it wasn't just once, I went there three times) and the products didn't really dazzle for the price that they are (rather pay for Dior, whose SAs are always putty in my hands). Plus, I feel like most people who even support MAC, whether they are hoarders or not, are guilty of perpetuating the company's loathsome practices... and are part of the problem. They are providing a service to me and I'm paying for it, so I should be the one being cattered to and not the other way around. Such MAC, with their piss poor service and their silly exclusives isnt my cup of tea in the slightest.

  Just so we're clear: this change doesn't affect me. You can check my posts, there won't be any in the MAC section and there will never be one (you can even check if I ever lurked if the software supports that, which I haven't either). So all of that said. I can safely say whatever without being looked at as having any kind of agenda.

  I have experience in boards with '_exclusive_' zones. They are useless. This is done to keep certain people out, but they will always infiltrate. If hoarders can advance so much money to buy entire collections of makeup, then they have enough money to buy a subscription. Some worthy people move elsewhere because they are always the ones who can't be bothered. I wouldn't pay to have information on makeup for example, no matter how much money I'm willing to pay for the product I'm getting. Plus, all the information leaks eventually, because that's the fate of 'exclusivivty'. The ebay hoarders aren't going to be fazed by any of this, because even if they come here for information (which I doubt, no offence) then they'll just adapt to the conditions. No offense to the admins and the method they came up with, at least you're trying to solution the problem, but this is useless.


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## latoyamo83 (Jan 10, 2014)

Quote:Originally Posted by *boujoischic* 




I wasn't being negative I was saying other members read through the threads because we enjoy them. Reading the threads responding and participating is what brings is closer as members but were being told people are cliquey? She saying she doesn't want to and feels upset if someone doesn't catch her up. I have helped other members and I'm well aware I don't have to but if you don't wanna read the threads why join.


  I don't think that is what her post said.  But okay.  I have been a "silent" member on this site for about 11 months now.  I don't read all the post, because majority of the time members get off topic anyway.  I do the exact same thing, I do not try to catch up on threads because if you ask a question that was asked on page 30, but the post is now on page 155, some of  you all act like the person has broke the law, and reply with "so and so has already answered that"...who cares?    I really wish that women could get along and not jump to conclusions and tell people how they should think or feel. It really takes up too much energy to be negative.


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