# Makeup artist against MAC/ MAC pushing independant artists out of the industry



## shygirl (Sep 19, 2005)

I just came across this site while searching for MAC Pro articles: 
http://p082.ezboard.com/fmakeupandre....topic&index=6

I can only speak from a consumer's perspective. I like MAC because of it's quality and quantity, and not because I assumed make-up artists use MAC for popular models. I know that I'm not a professional and don't plan to become one. I'm simply fulfilling a dream of a little girl who snuck and played in her mom's make-up. I do sympathize with them, though.


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## I love Brian Kinney (Sep 19, 2005)

Wow..some of their opinions of MAC are pretty harsh but I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I personally know a few people who can't stand MAC and wont even come into the store with me when I look around. But I will always love MAC!


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## MACgirl (Sep 19, 2005)

they are harsh but some are true, i love mac, and i belive i quality of thier products. As a freelance makeup artist i only use mac but not becuase of the name but because mac makeup actually does something for me and my clients. I dont see The mac vehicle slowing down soon and the only bad thing is that the quality of mac might be put to the test with so many color stories coming out so quickly, it doesnt give the consumer to buy any of the perm stuff which is great....


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## litlaur (Sep 20, 2005)

They do bring up some interesting point, but some of those responses are a *tad* melodramatic.


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## user4 (Sep 20, 2005)

"MAC is great for MUA wannabees at this point."
"Again, this is just my opinion, as I am sure there are many out there who will argue with me and think that they are more bomb diggity than ever...."

WHAT I DONT UNDERSTAND IS WHY PEOPLE FEEL THE NEED TO SAY SHIT LIKE THIS AND DISRESPECT OTHER'S OPINIONS. PEOPLE CAN BE SO SELF INVOLVED IN THEIR LITTLE IM A MAKE UP ARTIST WORLD THAT THEY FORGET THAT THEY STARTED OFF IN THE SAME PLACE AS EVERYONE ELSE DID... STEALING THEIR MOMMY'S LIPSTICK WHEN THEY WERE 5!!! MAKES ME KINDA MAD!


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## leppy (Sep 20, 2005)

Its a sad fact that whenever something becomes very popular there is a certain amount of backlash that is almost guaranteed. 

Also I'm sure that MU artists, like any other specialized person want to feel like they are privy to certain information and products, like they are part of an exclusive group who "know better" than the masses. 

Not everything MAC comes out with is great, some of it is not even good, but I can't help but think that if MAC was not so popular at this point, and had more exclusive to pro stores (and possibly if the average consumer was excluded from getting those products all together) than a fair number of those people would be singing a different tune. 

Not to say that all of the negativity is invalid, I think we all know that MAC has stepped up their collections and new products, sometimes at the cost of quality or irregardless of quality. They've also come out with some truly great products in the past year or two as well though.


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## PhonyBaloney500 (Sep 20, 2005)

*I still love it anyway!*

Youch someone called it a heartless backstabbing company! Wha??


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## litlaur (Sep 20, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *PhonyBaloney500* 
_Youch someone called it a heartless backstabbing company! Wha??_

 
Exactly what I was talking about. Let me tell you, the things MAC has done to these people is a real "tragedy"...


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## bluegrassbabe (Sep 20, 2005)

There are some valid points there, but it won't change my feelings for MAC. 10 yrs ago
I had a hodgepodge of about 6 brands of makeup in my case. When I found MAC those others just faded off into obscurity in my mind. The products would stay forever without sacrificing the feeling or the look. The e/s had textures like butter, so easy to work with. MAC is just fun. 100x more fun than any other line I had seen. I loved the kookiness of the names, counter people, the bizarre looking post cards. It has all the personality I haven't seen with other makeup lines and it is the reason I wanted to work as an MUA. 
I have noticed the negative influence of the EL brand in the last few years. THe collections are coming out waay to fast now, and some of them aren't very interesting. The quality is lacking in some of the new products, but the classics are still as good as they ever were, IMO. Maybe my perspective is different because I am 
pretty small time. I work in a small city where MU is not my primary income, but a 
nice supplement.
I still love it, and have no plans to remove it from my kit anytime soon.


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## SonRisa (Sep 20, 2005)

I actually agree with a lot of what was said :-X I'll post more on it later though . . .have to go to work.


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## leppy (Sep 20, 2005)

I just now had time to go through the majority of the posts. I still say that some of it is the backlash thats unavoidable when something gets so mainstream, but it sounds like they have some pretty valid reasons for hating their corporate practice. 

I guess being swallowed up by a big company & turning into a monster is unavoidable in our society. Bummer.


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## lovemichelle (Sep 20, 2005)

This was very fun to read. I like these quotes:

 Quote:

  I hope no one feels powerless because we can truly make a change. Artists made MAC, Artists can break MAC (at least in the corrupt form that it exists in today). We don't have to just sit and watch the MUA's priceless place in this industry be minimized into oblivion.

I used to be sooo proud of the MAC name. "I work for MAC!" "I freelance for MAC" "Have you tried MAC"? "I have primarily MAC in my kit"! It is over :sad

I wish none of this were true but I know first hand that it is. I've seen the shade up close and I'm sad to see it isn't isolated.

Though the counter is behind me and I'm progressing well in the early stages of my MUA career I have still freelanced for MAC.

In addition to the embarrassingly lowest pay out there compared to other lines, they do as little as possible for their people. I also witnessed the "Artists" they send out to do shows. 2 ladies at one show were so new they were there earning their "certification", an impressive way of saying they were new employees earning the right to wear a piece of metal MAC jewelry. Not to belittle the actual people and there's still some talent left but the majority have truly become glorified cashiers - in my neck of the woods anyway.

A few times I've been reminded of how "out of touch" even the "higher ups" are with the real world of a working Freelance MUA. For example a Manager of the actual MAC store (not a counter) had no idea who a top name Agency was that I mentioned to her and though I explained my professional goals to her she keeps asking when I'm coming back to work for the company. How about NEVERUARY,2004!!!?

This is more lengthy than I intended. Though counseled (hi VIK) not to get MAC happy I still have quite a few MAC products in my kit (just got happy with the discount back then). I've since learned to "speak" many other Brands besides "MAC". I'll use up what I have and find superior substitutes for the favorites.

As for freelancing, after the jobs I'm scheduled for I'm going to stick to accepting assignments from another line.

In light of the various negative trends in this industry I'm so encouraged to see that integrity still lives here with many of you.

Crystal  
 
 Quote:

  Artists have each person in their chair for 30 minutes to an hour each....almost everyone questions me about products...do you know how much MAC I have sold over the years? the minute we start telling people "no, MAC isnt for artists anymore" the impact will be felt, I promise you. Patience Patience Patience....  
 
 Quote:

  Though I despise doing the trend shows that all of the department stores are producing, I always get a huge chuckle at the shoppers who run over to the LM or BB counters because some Cyndi Lauper-looking idiot at the MAC counter made them look like a pale clown. As usual, MAC hires a ton of 19 year-old girls who like to apply garrish makeup on themselves and the clients. And those, fortunately for the other lines, are the ones working these events. MAC doesn't hire "artists" anymore - they would rather groom these PYTs into little corporate look-a-likes. Somehow - whether Spring or Fall trend, they use lots of silver and navy. Which is so not a good look on most people... And the horrified clients come running to the actual artist brands to be "fixed".


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## lovemichelle (Sep 21, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *sxychika1014* 
_"MAC is great for MUA wannabees at this point."
"Again, this is just my opinion, as I am sure there are many out there who will argue with me and think that they are more bomb diggity than ever...."

WHAT I DONT UNDERSTAND IS WHY PEOPLE FEEL THE NEED TO SAY SHIT LIKE THIS AND DISRESPECT OTHER'S OPINIONS. PEOPLE CAN BE SO SELF INVOLVED IN THEIR LITTLE IM A MAKE UP ARTIST WORLD THAT THEY FORGET THAT THEY STARTED OFF IN THE SAME PLACE AS EVERYONE ELSE DID... STEALING THEIR MOMMY'S LIPSTICK WHEN THEY WERE 5!!! MAKES ME KINDA MAD!_

 
You must be mad to use all those caps.


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## martygreene (Sep 21, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *SonRisa* 
_I actually agree with a lot of what was said :-X I'll post more on it later though . . .have to go to work._

 
I have a feeling we might be on the same page. I'll have to wait and see though.


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## shygirl (Sep 22, 2005)

If I'm understanding their frustrations correctly, I think I can relate to being alienated. 

I think rather than try to beat the competition, I think the MUAs should literally join the competition. They could probably use their situation and energy as motivators: to create their own make-up line, artists books, talent company, etc.  Rather than critique MAC MUA and consumers, I would think of them in positive ways  such as potential future employees, investors, eyes/ears, etc.).


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## MACgirl (Sep 22, 2005)

Posting agian....

I just get so upset when people trash talk a brand ,that truly works. I was over at mac a few months ago and after that i went into a dept. store for perfume, well this other brand (nameless) starts telling me abotutheir products and im interested and i mgiving hi ma shot but then he says oh thats a mac bag and i said yes why and he start completely bad talking them and how he used to work for that "bad company" i told him bad talking other good makeup doesnt make me want to buy yours, i walked away. Its horrible the way these artists in those are saying that mac isnt a pro item anymore and what not. I bet they obssesed over an e/s that was comnig and stuff just lile all of us....TRUST ME though MAC is staying around for a loooooooooooooong time....its not gonig to slow down


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## Demosthenes (Sep 22, 2005)

I like MAC, I do know that some items are better from other brands, but I like the company and what it stands for.  They may not be as pro-artist like they have been in the past (pre Lauder) but they still help us so much, like with the discount (as far as I know, no other brands accessible to me have a similar program for makeup artists).  They haven't taken any business away from local makeup artists but that's just my own location.


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## Jude (Sep 22, 2005)

I am completely addicted to MAC started with Lancome and once I discovered MAC, Lancome was quickly given away and my crazed collection was started.  I have only been into MAC for about a year.  I really started  around the time of Adorn and I believe that High Tea was my first experience with the whole collection anticipation thing.  I have a crazy collector type personality.  When I find something that I like, I have to have all of it so I came on mad strong when I started. Once a month, I was at my counter without fail and I would buy everything (foolishly).  Then I discovered that the Pro Stores get the products a week early so of course, my routine was changed to taking the train into the city once a month for the new stuff.

So, I think I certify as a bonafide MACaholic and frankly, I am not quite sure that is a good thing...haha.  When I first read that page, I was outraged.  I mean, how DARE they talk about MAC like that but then when I thought about it, I kinda agree with a lot of what those ladies are saying.  The monthly hype and speed of products that are released is like no other company I have ever seen.  It's almost as if the company  (EL) realizes that they are losing the artistic support and are feeding the masses to ensure it's place at the top. 

I believe that the artistic backlash could be a dangerous thing and here is why.  One of the greatest things about MAC, what makes it unique to me anyway, is the whole idea of it as a Pro product.  I think that the higher ups at MAC exploit that uniqueness as well because really, it is to their benefit to do so. MAC is not just a makeup.  Lancome is a makeup, Clinique is a makeup.  One goes to the counter, buys their stuff and leaves.  MAC has become an experience.  There is a different feel when you go to the MAC store or counter.  This experience is enhanced with the chic all black dress codes and the music pumping in the backround, the gorgeous MA's (male and female) who look larger than life.  It is even experienced with the haughty attitudes that you run into sometimes, as if these people are part of something special that you can only get a glimpse of.  The experience is enhanced with the minimalistic style of the store.  Black and white.  No fuss... very studio like.  Of course these things are no accident.  These are meant to draw the regular customer in and the product will keep us coming back. 


What gives this whole thing legitimacy is the artistic support MAC has or had. What happens if that is taken away?  That base is suddenly gone and then MAC is now a company that is merely perpetrating it's status in the PRO world.  Now, I am not saying that if the Pros stop using MAC that I am going to run to Shu or Nars.  No, I love MAC dearly but I feel that once the Pros are gone, the bar is kinda lowered ya know; that a discriminating standard that needed to be lived up to (the pro industry) is gone so that leaves the regular consumer for the company to focus on.  That means that this crazy rollercoaster speed at which these collections are coming out is stepped up because hype is what drives the consumer in the end.

When there is almost this assembly line style of getting the product out quickly; month after month after month, it is inevitable that quality control is going to take a hit.  Think, Prep and Prime and Paintstrokes.  

Please don't take this as me turning to the darkside or whatever because that is not the case. I am as loyal to MAC as ever but I would be dismayed to see MAC lose it's edge.  To see it cut corners to keep up with this monthly demand.  For it to become just another makeup brand.  

For a company like MAC that celebrates it edginess and avante garde styles, to promote complete blind loyalty is paradoxical.  For MAC to be the best, we as their consumer base need to demand the best from it.  If there is a backlash against the company by the pro industry, it might serve one well to think about the reasons before dismissing it as 'just backlash'.  

Dissention is not always a negative thing.  Dissention can cause change for the better.  Keep the higher-ups on their toes because in the end, the higher-ups are about the money and if cutting corners or cheaping out on a product will make more money for them, they will gladly do it (Blue Pigment anyone?) .  It is our job to make sure that doesn't happen.. because well, that would just suck.

Sorry for the ramble... lol.


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## mspixieears (Sep 22, 2005)

I have this horrible feeling that MAC has somehow 'hooked' us onto them and we buy new colours from the new collections like kiddies in a sweet shop. I find this phenomenon hardest to resist when I'm unhappy (pathetic, isn't it).

Perhaps that is where some of the animosity towards MAC stems from? Just a thought.


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## ms.marymac (Sep 22, 2005)

MAC is the M/U crack dealer! lol

I think it has to do with the changes the company has made since Lauder bought it.  I was not there before the change, so I cannot say anything.  I have just heard a lot of things from people who were there.  

In the words of Risa= :X


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## lovemichelle (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *mspixieears* 
_I have this horrible feeling that MAC has somehow 'hooked' us onto them and we buy new colours from the new collections like kiddies in a sweet shop. I find this phenomenon hardest to resist when I'm unhappy (pathetic, isn't it).

Perhaps that is where some of the animosity towards MAC stems from? Just a thought._

 
It's weird to see adults run to a make-up counter when new things come out and worship it in a sense. MAC has people brainwashed, but thank God I'm not one of those people.


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## mspixieears (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *lovemichelle* 
_It's weird to see adults run to a make-up counter when new things come out and worship it in a sense. MAC has people brainwashed, but thank God I'm not one of those people._

 
Neither am I, but it still disgusts me how much MAC I've bought even though I only get something that will add to my collection's uniqueness. I gave my mum one of my LE lippies because I knew it would suit her and that I had some UD lipgunks that were similar enough to it.

I might run to a shop in a brainwashed fashion for a very special book, or even a new album from a band I adored. Guess that's just as sad, really!


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## lah_knee (Sep 22, 2005)

it pretty much is a shitty situation for professional freelancing artists who make a living off of that, but honestly, im not one of those people so i dont really care. or rather i cannot sympathize... im an average consumer who has a passion for makeup. i love lots of brands but only MAC comes out with products and colors that wow me for the most part. i dont buy into the hype or look... i dont buy products just because they are LE or RARE. i buy things i think i will like. most of the time i am right. MAC is no longer just a makeup artist brand. and ya know what there are tons of other professional makeup lines they can use... they can boycott it all they want. because the average consumers will STILL buy it. and more and more people are getting into it. for all ages, all races and all sexes.


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## PrettyKitty (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *lovemichelle* 
_It's weird to see adults run to a make-up counter when new things come out and worship it in a sense. MAC has people brainwashed, but thank God I'm not one of those people._

 
What's wrong with that if you have the money?


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## PrettyKitty (Sep 22, 2005)

I'm not a MAC makeup-artist, but I was a Biotherm MA. I got the WORST experience with Biotherm, but seriously, I will NEVER say bad things about this brand because it's STILL good products. 

Oh by the way, if you don't like MAC why you are on Specktra?? I saw something here, and I wonder why it could be funny to read bad things like that about MAC when you're supposed to love MAC products? Why do you find it stupid when someone RUN to check the new collection? Because... If you're here, you're not supposed to be a MAC addict like us?

Makeup for artists or for 'average' consumers, I don't care. I love MAC because they have great products. (Yeah, sometimes they are not so great, but it's the same story in every brand!!)


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## Jude (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *PrettyKitty* 
_What's wrong with that if you have the money?_

 
I am with you on this one; there is nothing wrong with it Kitty.  There is nothing wrong with loving a particular brand and being excited about the release of new products.  I don't understand what the actual point is of that statement actually.  I mean, so what.  Many people collect many things.  Many people run to Best Buy every Tuesday to add to their DVD collection and there are more examples of collectors happy and anxious to acquire something new for their collection.

I am one of those unenlightened adults that look forward to seeing the new collections so shoot me...haha.  

That being said, I got an awful Magrittes paint in the mail and sent the company an email about it.  In return, I got a replacement and a free LG for my troubles.   Guess it pays not to cry over spilled milk, or a defective paint, or even a melted lipstick for that matter...haha.


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## lovemichelle (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *PrettyKitty* 
_What's wrong with that if you have the money?_

 
What I said had nothing to do with money.


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## martygreene (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Demosthenes* 
_(as far as I know, no other brands accessible to me have a similar program for makeup artists)_

 
Actually, lots of lines do. Most aren't advertised the way MACs is, and I kinda agree with that methodology myself. Here's some info.


The information required on your part varies from company to company. Some are very stringent in their requirements. Almost all companies require that purchases are made via fax or phone. 

BeneFit-
Mail or fax copy of license & contact information to:
BeneFit Cosmetics
re: makeup artist program
685 Market St. 7th floor
San Francisco, CA 94105
fax: (415) 781-3930

Cinema Secrets-
10% discount. Call their number (818-846-0579) to ask for the makeup artist discount when ordering.

Lorac-
40% discount, provide union card, resume, certification, etc. Discount applicable to mail order only (800-845-0705). Fax information to 818-678-3930

Smashbox-
WE REQUIRE ONE OF THE FOLLOWING:
Agency card with photo id
Professional tear sheet with your name on it with photo id
Valid union card with your photo id
-OR-
WE REQUIRE TWO OF THE FOLLOWING:
Professional agency letter of reference with business card & photo id
Crew call list with press material & photo id
Valid makeup artistry certificate (within the last 5 years) & photo id
Please fax the requirements for verification and include the following:
Full name
Address, city, state & zip code
Home & Work/Cell phone numbers
E-mail address

Once approved, Smashbox cosmetics will issue a professional 40% discount authorization letter. You may place an order by calling 888.763.1361 or fax 310.558.1491.

Stila-
40% discount
Mail 2 credentials (bus. card, license, etc) plus a copy of a photo ID along with address & phone number to:
Stila Cosmetics, Inc.,
Corporate Headquarters
2801 Hyperion Avenue #102
Los Angeles, CA 90027

Sue Devitt Studio-
40% for professional makeup artists
888-870-1150

Vincent Longo Cosmetics-
30% for professional makeup artists
877-LONGO99


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## Star (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:

  MAC has become an experience. There is a different feel when you go to the MAC store or counter. This experience is enhanced with the chic all black dress codes and the music pumping in the backround, the gorgeous MA's (male and female) who look larger than life.  
 
Oh boy.  You've never been to a counter around here!  They have zits like everyone else (well, I don't but I guess I'm just lucky).  They don't look super glamourous. Their makeup isn't always flawless or even great for that matter.

 Quote:

   It is even experienced with the haughty attitudes that you run into sometimes, as if these people are part of something special that you can only get a glimpse of.  
 
Anyone's "haughty attitude" - be it manufactured or genuine - is NOT going to get me to loosen the purse strings.  No way.  No how.  You are waiting on ME, you are trying to sell ME stuff, not the other way around, not "I hope the MAC salesgirl will like me enough to deign to sell me some makeup today!"  And if they even TRIED that, they'd have their little attitude brought down a few notches and shoved down their throat in no time flat.

Now, seriously, they have to slow down the freakin' collections or (in my humble opinion) they will experience a backlash the likes of which they never anticipated. It's becoming a joke (Freshwater-slash-Belle-Azure, anyone?)


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## JamericanDiva (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *martygreene* 
_I have a feeling we might be on the same page. I'll have to wait and see though._

 
Hmmm.... very eye opening. This is very thought provoking and I had no idea that it was going down like this. I am a freelancer, so I can identify with what was being said. It's not so much the product as it is the practices that they are mentioning.


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## Jude (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Star* 
_Oh boy.  You've never been to a counter around here!  They have zits like everyone else (well, I don't but I guess I'm just lucky).  They don't look super glamourous. Their makeup isn't always flawless or even great for that matter.



Anyone's "haughty attitude" - be it manufactured or genuine - is NOT going to get me to loosen the purse strings.  No way.  No how.  You are waiting on ME, you are trying to sell ME stuff, not the other way around, not "I hope the MAC salesgirl will like me enough to deign to sell me some makeup today!"  And if they even TRIED that, they'd have their little attitude brought down a few notches and shoved down their throat in no time flat.

Now, seriously, they have to slow down the freakin' collections or (in my humble opinion) they will experience a backlash the likes of which they never anticipated. It's becoming a joke (Freshwater-slash-Belle-Azure, anyone?)_

 

Okay Star.


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## lah_knee (Sep 22, 2005)

hahaha wow sounds like MAC gets under some people's skin 

ITS JUST MAKEUP! who cares if people fall into the trendy side to it... or waste their money on it... or wait to see the new lines. its just makeup. what they do doesnt effect you. unless you happen to work at another counter losing sales to mac haha but thats just how it goes. they know how to sell their product... "brainwashing" some might say, but hey its selling. more people surround the mac counter than any other counter i go to. and no not everyone loves it and not everyone is a raving fan and thats ok. i dont try to talk people into liking mac so people shouldnt talk people into disliking it. what happen to letting people make up their own mind? hmmm anyway my point is, its just makeup... and like prettykitty said, i wonder why people who dislike mac would be on here? not that you arent allowed on here but its just strange...


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## lovemichelle (Sep 22, 2005)

I don't know about everyone else, but where I live people swarm the Clinique counter. The way some of you guys do make-up with all the colors, I can honestly say I've never seen someone like that in my real day-to-day life. I guess people around here stay to the natural look. That's my personal preference also, but I wouldn't feel like myself with 10 or so eyeshadows on me and all that other stuff. I'm not a movie star and don't need to look like one.

MAC to me shows off more out there kinda make-up and I don't need anything like that.


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## Cruella (Sep 22, 2005)

I can understand some of the backlash even if I don't agree with it.  When MAC was more exclusive and there were fewer counters, the buyers could feel as though they were part of a private club. A product loses some of its appeal when every 13 year old girl has it.  

I love MAC stuff but I don't get as obsessive/compulsive over it as some do.  I buy what I like and ignore what I don't.  I find any addiction to be a little pathetic.


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## PrettyKitty (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Cruella* 
_ I love MAC stuff but I don't get as obsessive/compulsive over it as some do.  I buy what I like and ignore what I don't.  I find any addiction to be a little pathetic._

 
That's what some girls on Specktra do too... but the problem is that we love more things than you. So that's probably why we buy more... No worries, we never buy a color if it looks ugly in our opinion.


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## so_siqqq (Sep 22, 2005)

Like Lah-Knee said it's just makeup. 

Since when is it a big deal if it "sold out" on its ethics.
If it doesn't cater to you than say it but don't bash on other people like 13 yr. olds who buy MAC or any other brand.
Majority of us were stuck in that rut in our lives when we didn't know shit on how to apply makeup. 

There's no need for this feeling of eliteness. Who cares if MAC is no longer for make up artists. Makeup is for everyone no matter if they are novice or expert. Makeup is art, self expression. It changes our mood. It doesn't matter if I use some drug store brand or high end brand. Makeup has one purpose and it's to express how we are inside through physical means (ie appearance).


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## PrettyKitty (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *lovemichelle* 
_ MAC to me shows off more out there kinda make-up and I don't need anything like that._

 
Ok... so if MAC isn't your style, why you're on Specktra??


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## Jude (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *lovemichelle* 
_I don't know about everyone else, but where I live people swarm the Clinique counter. The way some of you guys do make-up with all the colors, I can honestly say I've never seen someone like that in my real day-to-day life. I guess people around here stay to the natural look. That's my personal preference also, but I wouldn't feel like myself with 10 or so eyeshadows on me and all that other stuff. I'm not a movie star and don't need to look like one.

MAC to me shows off more out there kinda make-up and I don't need anything like that._

 
Thank God that MAC is out there to show you what kind of makeup you don't need.  Funny that you would hang out in a MAC forum though.  Oh yeah... you must need constant reminder of what you don't need..haha.


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## lovemichelle (Sep 22, 2005)

Exactly, it is just make-up, but people seem obsessed with it now. Honestly, if my skin was clear like it used to be I wouldn't even be wearing make-up. I have a boyfriend who loves me regardless if I have it on or not so I couldn't care less. I only wear it now because I hate how some spots of my skin look. I took all my make-up for the night and I kinda feel like I look better without it. I feel pure and just myself.

Some act like MAC is so much more superior to other things and I don't think so. Or they will be like "oh there goes all the money in my wallet cuz MAC has a new collection out." Please. A blow lipstick or Luella TLC isn't that important.

When I used MAC my friends were like what's that? I was like I guess it's good shit because people hype it, but it isn't all that.


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## PrettyKitty (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *lovemichelle* 
_ Honestly, if my skin was clear like it used to be I wouldn't even be wearing make-up. I have a boyfriend who loves me regardless if I have it on or not so I couldn't care less. I only wear it now because I hate how some spots of my skin look. I took all my make-up for the night and I kinda feel like I look better without it. I feel pure and just myself._

 
Oh... well... If you look better without makeup, why you still wear it??

By the way you're not alone; My boyfriend love it too when I don't wear makeup, but I love to apply my makeup.... so I don't care and do what *I* want...


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## Jude (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *lovemichelle* 
_Exactly, it is just make-up, but people seem obsessed with it now. Honestly, if my skin was clear like it used to be I wouldn't even be wearing make-up. I have a boyfriend who loves me regardless if I have it on or not so I couldn't care less. I only wear it now because I hate how some spots of my skin look. I took all my make-up for the night and I kinda feel like I look better without it. I feel pure and just myself.

Some act like MAC is so much more superior to other things and I don't think so. Or they will be like "oh there goes all the money in my wallet cuz MAC has a new collection out." Please. A blow lipstick or Luella TLC isn't that important.

When I used MAC my friends were like what's that? I was like I guess it's good shit because people hype it, but it isn't all that._

 

Ok Michelle.  We get it.  Thank you for being around to remind us of how blah MAC is and how much more evolved you are because you manage to stay above the fray unlike the rest of us plebes.  I would give your further accolades regarding all this but you have been doing a most excellent job of doing it yourself.  

To each his own....

Peace!


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## PrettyKitty (Sep 22, 2005)

AMEN sistah!


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## lovemichelle (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *DopeSickGirl* 
_Thank God that MAC is out there to show you what kind of makeup you don't need.  Funny that you would hang out in a MAC forum though.  Oh yeah... you must need constant reminder of what you don't need..haha._

 
This is JUST a MAC forum? I didn't realize that. I thought it was for make-up in general. I am in the LJ MAC community because I used to use MAC, but I rarely even post there.

I didn't try to say anything bad about them, but I think some people take their make-up way too far.


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## PrettyKitty (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *lovemichelle* 
_This is JUST a MAC forum? I didn't realize that. I thought it was for make-up in general. I am in the LJ MAC community because I used to use MAC, but I rarely even post there.

I didn't try to say anything bad about them, but I think some people take their make-up way too far._

 
Hum okay yeah... scroll up and you should see 'Your definitive MAC resource'.


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## lovemichelle (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *PrettyKitty* 
_Hum okay yeah... scroll up and you should see 'Your definitive MAC resource'._

 
What does that mean?


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## martygreene (Sep 22, 2005)

Yes, Specktra is largely about MAC, but we are not exclusive to MAC and we welcome all who have an interest in makeup to our site and our forums. We have folk here who favor Stila, Bobbi Brown, Biotherm, Perscriptives, Mineral Makeup, and many other brands as well as those who wear minimal makeup. 

As for whether it matters if businesses have as some would call it "sold out" on their business ethics, that is a personal decision. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. 

As for the obsession issue, while I do not agree with the compulsive buying, collecting, and hoarding of cosmetics personally, if that is what you wish to do then I wish you luck with it. The only time I really have an issue with it is when people who choose to behave in this manner then blame MAC or Estee Lauder/Markham for their personal financial problems later down the line. I do not think that everyone who likes MAC is required to be obsessed or compulsive about it. 

This has been a good thread full of discussion, open statement of opinion, and information sharing. Let's try and keep it as such. Remember, in a discussion or debate such as this, it is the points which are being hashed and re-hashed, personal experiance and anecdotal evidences are welcome, but personal attacks are not appropriate.


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## Chelsea (Sep 22, 2005)

Specktra is, first and foremost a mac website. However, we welcome ALL people who appreciate makeup and beauty. Not just mac! I really hope that everyone feels welcome here and that all members are welcoming those who don't use mac as well.

As far as my thought on this issue ... mac has changed. Everything changes, unfortunately. It is a hugely popular globalized chain now rather than the specialized brand it used to be. It's inevitable and something that comes with success.  There are things I loved about how mac used to be.. and things I love about how it is now.

And adding on to marty's earlier post about discounts..  NARS offers  one as well at least here in Canada. $150 off every $500 spent.


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## DoeEyedGirl (Sep 23, 2005)

I have been sitting back as a sort of voyeur to this debate, but I'd like to share my perspective on the subject. First, I'll tell you a little about me. I am a MAC artist and a professional freelancer (some runway, special fx and bridal for fun and extra $$$). I have also worked for Clinique and Chanel. MAC has some phenomenal products that are staples in my traincase...these "staples" really perform (I won't bother listing them because their are too many and I don't want to get onto another topic). I do agree that the new collections are coming out at lightning speed but part of that is not just attributed to EL but also customer demand. Many of our customers want new stuff constantly...I know firsthand....a collection will be out for a week and one of our diehards is already asking "What's next?" We cater to those customers as well our customers that just need a studio fix or a smolder eye kohl. We do our job...we sell...but no one is forcing anyone to buy into it. I have a ton of products because I have a ton of needs with my work...but I don't fall into the LE trap. Other lines do the same thing...they are just disguised as gifts or pwp. Come on? Clinique and Lancome always entice you to come in for an event or the next gift. Corporations have to make money. One thing I can say I am really proud about is our MAC AIDS fund...over 50 million dollars since its inception. Make doesn't make a penny on the Kids Helping Kids Cards or the Viva Glam lipsticks/gloss...every dollar spent goes to the fund not just the "profits". We also have helped our MAC brothers and sisters that were victims of Katrina with food a clothing drives. MAC is huge so there is good and bad. I have freelance friends who are hurting in NY but I also have friends that are thriving. I have my complaints about MAC but it has really educated me and opened a lot of doors for me also. I am a 24 yr old single mother of twins and a full-time student on top of everything...so soon I will be leaving the MAC world because retail hours don't mix with family...but MAC laid a good foundation for me as far as my freelance work goes. The networking is amazing...but like anything in this world you have to have accountability. If I am not a success it is not the fault of any corporation or the "man"....I have no one to blame but myself. I am grateful of the opportunities they have given me and as far as their shortcomings...I am resourceful and will be able to take it to the next level. There will always be obstacles in life. MAC has some great products and some talented artist...oh, and by the way...the pimply face no talent comments are harsh...you wouldn't want the MUA's ripping on our customers, would you?


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## PrettyKitty (Sep 23, 2005)

Whatever...

If it's not just a 'MAC Resource', it shouldn't be the 'title' of each page! And here, we are on the 'MAC Chat' forum. 

Anyway...

What's the point to be on a website if they mostly talk about a brand you don't like?

If I can't be myself and talk about MAC without being bashed because I buy too much or some others girls hate MAC..... Specktra isn't better than MUA!


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## Janice (Sep 23, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *PrettyKitty* 
_If it's not just a 'MAC Resource', it shouldn't be the 'title' of each page! And here, we are on the 'MAC Chat' forum. _

 
We are just a MAC resource, we do not compile, collect, and share information on the main site about any other line. Your right, it is MAC chat forum and people are here discussing MAC.. though not everyone is in favor of them.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Quote:

   Originally Posted by *PrettyKitty* 
_What's the point to be on a website if they mostly talk about a brand you don't like?_

 
Hrmm.. Well, I can't this answer for them. Hopefully it's because they came here and saw something they liked about the forum? Hopefully we offer them enough non-MAC alternative topics and forums for those people to feel like they have a reason to register and start participating. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Quote:

   Originally Posted by *PrettyKitty* 
_If I can't be myself and talk about MAC without being bashed because I buy too much or some others girls hate MAC_

 
I'm not sure where you are being bashed, or where anyone in this thread has directly insulted you about your MAC purchasing habits. Sure some people think we are silly to buy something from every collection, or purchase something simply because it's LE.. but who cares? 

Some people who have posted in this thread might not care for MAC, but that's okay! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There is no reason to make this topic personal. We don't have to answer to anyone for our purchasing habits but ourselves (and our SO's sometimes if we spend too much  ). 

 Quote:

   Originally Posted by *PrettyKitty* 
_Specktra isn't better than MUA!_

 
I'm not sure where anyone said this in this thread? I know I personally don't run around thinking Specktra is better than an estbliashed leading beauty discussion website with hundreds of thousands of members! Specktra is in no competition at al with MUA. We are just a little niche on the web for MAC and beauty chat.


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## martygreene (Sep 23, 2005)

I think it's less a matter of people who have posted to this thread hating MAC, but more that they are a bit more reserved in their manner towards it. Doesn't mean they don't like it, or don't use it, just means they have a different level of attachment to it, and that's OK.

Me? I use a variety of brands. I'm not an exclusive to MAC person. I never will be. I'll never even be close. To be completely honest, a large reason of why I use MAC products is the availability, and some of the PRO products which used to exist. I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet, when I run out of certain things. Do I agree 100% with the business ethics of the company? not really. Do I disagree with enough of them to stop buying from them completely? I don't think so, at least not yet. I'm still working hard to make an impact on the company, and it's seemed to be working. Product labelling is becoming much better. There are few businesses in the world who have perfect track records as far as their ethics go. I'm acutely aware of this from my humanitarian work. I make decisions based on the information I can gather, and if I can't gather anything bu anecdotal evidence, I won't make a judgement call on that as it's unreliable. 

Yes, we are LAREGELY a MAC resource, but we aren't ONLY a MAC site.


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## leppy (Sep 23, 2005)

I agree with you guys but I also see where some of the users are coming from. Some people are being downright hostile about MAC and implying that people are stupid or silly for being so into it. That is also not okay in my opinion. Sure we are a general MU site but our focus is on MAC. You don't have to love MAC to be here, you don't even have to like them, but openly hating on it and insulting those that love it is just inviting a hostile reaction from other members.


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## lovemichelle (Sep 23, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *PrettyKitty* 
_Whatever...

If it's not just a 'MAC Resource', it shouldn't be the 'title' of each page! And here, we are on the 'MAC Chat' forum. 

Anyway...

What's the point to be on a website if they mostly talk about a brand you don't like?

If I can't be myself and talk about MAC without being bashed because I buy too much or some others girls hate MAC..... Specktra isn't better than MUA!_

 
Because there are other topics that aren't about MAC and I also used to use the brand so I know some things about it.


----------



## Jude (Sep 23, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *leppy* 
_I agree with you guys but I also see where some of the users are coming from. Some people are being downright hostile about MAC and implying that people are stupid or silly for being so into it. That is also not okay in my opinion. Sure we are a general MU site but our focus is on MAC. You don't have to love MAC to be here, you don't even have to like them, but openly hating on it and insulting those that love it is just inviting a hostile reaction from other members._

 
Thank you Leppy!  I don't care if anyone decides to stop using MAC for whatever reason.  What gets under my skin is the attitude carried by some that the MAC lovers are silly or wrong or childish because they get excited about the monthly releases.  Like I said earlier, to each their own.  

Yes, this is a general MU site but the majority of the women on this board are here because of MAC.  Therefore, to run around from thread to thread, bashing MAC and it's loyal followers is kind of baffling to me.  

I apologize to any of the Specktra admins for my passionate postings earlier but I'm sorry, abrasive people just bug the heck out of me.


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## PrettyKitty (Sep 23, 2005)

Hum... where to start?

First:

I never said that Specktra was ONLY for MAC. I know that there is others topics than MAC, I'm not silly. But when people think about 'Specktra' they probably think about 'MAC'. Right?

What I want to say, is exactly what Leppy said. (But my english is too bad to be able to explain it):

 Quote:

  I agree with you guys but I also see where some of the users are coming from. Some people are being downright hostile about MAC and implying that people are stupid or silly for being so into it. That is also not okay in my opinion. Sure we are a general MU site but our focus is on MAC. You don't have to love MAC to be here, you don't even have to like them, but openly hating on it and insulting those that love it is just inviting a hostile reaction from other members.  
 
Janice; You talk to me like I was too stupid to understand. People can hate MAC, they can like it, and some people don't care. But even if someone don't like Clinique... It's not a reason to go on a website *mostly* made for Clinique (Read, here, I said *mostly* and not ONLY) and bash the girls because they buy this brand, use it and love it. It's better to say nothing when you have nothing great to say!

 Quote:

  I'm not sure where anyone said this in this thread? I know I personally don't run around thinking Specktra is better than an estbliashed leading beauty discussion website with hundreds of thousands of members! Specktra is in no competition at al with MUA. We are just a little niche on the web for MAC and beauty chat.  
 
Nobody said that in this thread, I never said that! What I want to say is: I was thinking that Specktra was a nice website where you can talk about MAC with others MAC addicts, and feel great here because they love the same thing.. MAC! On MUA, lot of girls don't like MAC as we love it here. We find more true MAC addicts here than on MUA. But I was wrong, Specktra isn't better than MUA (I thought it was!), we are not a little MAC lovers group like I thought we were....

Remember, my native language isn't english, so please, try to read it carefully, maybe you will understand more...


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## Juneplum (Sep 23, 2005)

i've been following this thread and watching what's happening.. couple of things came to mind.. like pretty kitty said, the majority of us here at specktra ARE bonafide mac addicts and enjoy revelling in the new collections and accompanying frenzy that surrounds their release. 

that being said, what bothers me is that this IS a mostly mac lovers group so if someone starts to bash the product and make fun of us beacuse of our love for the product, they should not be surprised to see us all rise to it's defense. 

in no way does that mean if u don't love mac that u cannot be on specktra, however, do not belittle us for our passion about mac. some of us DO think mac is superior and guess what, that is OUR choice and OUR preference. if we want to spend all our money on mac it's nobody elses business but our own. sure we may joke around and say things like "oh i'm going to be so broke" or "oh boy there goes my paycheck" but that's what they are JOKES. and even if they are not jokes and some of us ARE complusive buyers, again, that's OUR business.

like pretty kitty said, we are on the MAC chat forum, so coming here and being judgemental about us is a waste of your time and ours quite frankly.


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## shygirl (Sep 23, 2005)

Ok. I really, really didn't intend to stir up the pot when I created this post.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




My reason for creating the topic was, yeah, I did feel like I had to defend my fascination with MAC. I shouldn't have felt that way but what's done is done. There are non-Pros who are really, really good at make-up application! I just felt that shouldve been taken into consideration. Being a beauty-schooled Pro doesn't necessarily make you the best. 

I also wanted to offer another perspective to the professional MAs who were against MAC's treatment of them personally. I know what it's like to be mistreated and I took the soapbox approach and it didn't work for me. So, I was trying to suggest rather than work against consumers, work with us. I also realized that there are people on Specktra who work for MAC and love their jobs so I wanted to hear what they had to say. Like, maybe the company has changed, etc. 

Finally, I should've just posted my thoughts on that site but I automatically assumed I wouldn't be able to register since it looks like a paid site. I shouldn't have done that.

In short, I apologize for starting this topic.


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## leppy (Sep 23, 2005)

Janice did nothing of the sort PK, no where did she speak to you like you are stupid and I really don't see how random users expressing that they don't like MAC very much means we're oh so bad and plagued with the problems of MUA. If a few people expressing an opinion that you don't agree with sours the whole site for you then it would be impossible to keep you happy. 

Specktra is a MAC resource and was made for the purpose of discussing & sharing info about MAC, but other cosmetic lines and their fans are welcome to be here. That is all anyone is trying to get across, and I don't see anything that has been said in this thread by the admins or mods that deserves them being attacked for it.


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## leppy (Sep 23, 2005)

Also, shygirl.. you did nothing wrong. All you did was bring up an important subject and its not your fault at all that its turned this way. Controversial topics always get peoples blood boiling, but thats no reason not to discuss them.

Hopefully everyone will just calm down and realize that one thread is not worth all this drama.


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## orodwen (Sep 23, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *DopeSickGirl* 
_...Yes, this is a general MU site but the majority of the women on this board are here because of MAC..._

 
speak for yourself.  i'm here for the sex!


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## Cruella (Sep 23, 2005)

I honestly can't see why people are getting so hysterical about this topic.  People are taking it way too seriously.  No one has been personally insulted so why take offense?  I'm sure that the corporate big-wigs at MAC aren't crying themselves to sleep on their wee pillows over that website 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Now, knock it off before I take away your makeup and make you sit in the corner!


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## Juneplum (Sep 23, 2005)

^ lol cruella!


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## Shawna (Sep 23, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *lovemichelle* 
_I don't know about everyone else, but where I live people swarm the Clinique counter. The way some of you guys do make-up with all the colors, I can honestly say I've never seen someone like that in my real day-to-day life. I guess people around here stay to the natural look. That's my personal preference also, but I wouldn't feel like myself with 10 or so eyeshadows on me and all that other stuff. I'm not a movie star and don't need to look like one.

MAC to me shows off more out there kinda make-up and I don't need anything like that._

 
You're right, I don't need to look like a movie star.  But I am mostly a stay at home mom, and I gotta tell you I love when people look at me and say "wow, you have a kid?"  It is a way for me to keep my own identity as "shawna" rather than "graham's mommy"  I have worn mac for years because it doesn't bother my ultra sensitive skin, but it has been the past 2 years that I really got back into it.  I look forward to new collections because it is something just for me.  It doesn't involve my husband or child (well, it does when he gets into my MU, but that's another story)  It is something for me and me alone.  If I want to glam it up and look movie-starish, mac is the way to go.  I am saddened that people are upset about the practices of the corporation, but I am sure other companies out there are just as bad, and one wouldn't have to dig too deep to find controversy.  As for me, I am happy buying mac, and I will continue to do so.  Until my hubby cuts me off


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## PrettyKitty (Sep 23, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *leppy* 
_ If a few people expressing an opinion that you don't agree with sours the whole site for you then it would be impossible to keep you happy._

 
I don't care if someone else doesn't have the same opinion... But like Juneplum said:

 Quote:

   what bothers me is that this IS a mostly mac lovers group so if someone starts to bash the product and make fun of us because of our love for the product, they should not be surprised to see us all rise to it's defense.  
 
(I copy this sentence because it sounds like nobody understand me when I try to write something in english by myself)


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## Shawna (Sep 23, 2005)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *PrettyKitty* 
_(I copy this sentence because it sounds like nobody understand me when I try to write something in english by myself)_

 
Aww, I understand you perfectly PK.  Of course, the people I work for are from Montreal so I am used to the accent whether it is written or spoken.  I think you speak English really well.

As for what Juneplum said, yeah, I don't know why we are having to defend our love of MAC.  I mean, that's how we all found this place right?


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## Juneplum (Sep 23, 2005)

^ Word!!!


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## anuy (Sep 24, 2005)

the way i see it, people have passion for certain items. for me, it used to be boybands and now it's MAC. i don't need to justify my <3 to anybody. if my obsession seems 'pathetic' then so be it. i don't think it's pathetic and thats all that matters.


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## Janice (Sep 24, 2005)

OT discussion continued here: 

http://specktra.net/forum/showthread.php?t=30188


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## MACreation (Oct 2, 2005)

THE INSANITY OF IT ALL.........so what if girls like makeup, it's not like we crush it and sniff it...damn, relax biaaaches stop being mean to us specktra girls 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




UUmmmm...ok??

"MAC is great for MUA wannabees at this point.,,,Again, this is just my opinion, as I am sure there are many out there who will argue with me and think that they are more bomb diggity than ever...."


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## GreekChick (Oct 2, 2005)

I agree with the MAC defense but i also agree with the fact that they release their products way too fast.....but thats normal seeing that they have to satisfy the customer demands....I love MAC nonetheless.MAC POWER!


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## MAC addict (Apr 30, 2006)

I am new to MAC...is MAC a backstage makeup brand?

..I'VE TRIED MOST OF THEIR EYESHADOW AND I THINK ITS THE BEST I'V TRIED!


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## aziajs (Apr 30, 2006)

Well, yes and no.  There is a consumer line and a pro line.  And both are used by professionals.


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## Bass-0-Matic (May 1, 2006)

MAC is mainly focused on the consumer aspect of marketing and was used a lot by professionals in the MA industry.  However, after Estee Lauder bought the company, MAC has been under cutting the actual artists who have to work harder to get the same jobs.  They send out free teams of sales associates to cover fashion week and other jobs as long as they have exclussive rights to do all of the makeup and are credited for it.  A lot of free-lancers in inner circles are giving up using and purchasing MAC products because they feel that MAC is not doing their areas justice by sending teams with little to no experience and are taking money from them.  There is much more to this issue than a few sentences.  Essentially it is used a lot backstage but there are a growing number of professional artists who are banding together to effectively boycott MAC and not use it.


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## Wattage (May 1, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Bass-0-Matic* 
_MAC is mainly focused on the consumer aspect of marketing and was used a lot by professionals in the MA industry.  However, after Estee Lauder bought the company, MAC has been under cutting the actual artists who have to work harder to get the same jobs.  They send out free teams of sales associates to cover fashion week and other jobs as long as they have exclussive rights to do all of the makeup and are credited for it.  A lot of free-lancers in inner circles are giving up using and purchasing MAC products because they feel that MAC is not doing their areas justice by sending teams with little to no experience and are taking money from them.  There is much more to this issue than a few sentences.  Essentially it is used a lot backstage but there are a growing number of professional artists who are banding together to effectively boycott MAC and not use it._

 
Really? This is the first I have heard of this. Are there any other MAs who could possibly comment on this? 

TIA


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## Bass-0-Matic (May 1, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *wattage* 
_Really? This is the first I have heard of this. Are there any other MAs who could possibly comment on this? 

TIA 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I just wanted to add that I love the MAC that I own, and I am not an MUA.  I found a very long thread here at this forum:

http://p082.ezboard.com/fmakeupandre...  D=7896.topic

It is many pages long, but if you take the time to read it, it answers a lot of questions.  there are also many different threads on the forum that answer the same questions.


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## mspixieears (May 1, 2006)

Hey Bass-O-Matic, I'm reading the thread now and given my personal social beliefs, wow, I have to say I'm really shocked...it's not right for corporations to do that to freelancers, or to anyone who is independent. Bummer.

I say that as an artist, not a makeup one. I'm kind of feeling a bit guilty about having gorged on so much MAC of late, having started to read the thread quoted above.


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## SMMY (May 1, 2006)

Wow, after reading that whole thread in the forum, just shocked at how shabby the MUAs have been treated. I imagine it's all Estee Lauder driven. I hate to say, it but I hope the MUA's succeed in their boycott.


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## Bass-0-Matic (May 1, 2006)

I agree with what you guys have written.  I love MAC so much, but it hurts me when I read about their business practices.  The boycott is mostly to try and get them to change their ways, not to run them out of business.  If I were to become a MUA, I would feel obligated to not use MAC and not suggest it to clients.  But I will continue to use what I have and be happy with my color selection.


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## giz2000 (May 1, 2006)

Unfortunately, that's the way the business world works...if  a company can get results (details are not important, only the bottom line) by using cheaper (or free) labor, then that's what they'll do.


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## FacesbyNiki (May 1, 2006)

Use and do what's best for YOU. That's my motto.


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## Femme Noir (May 1, 2006)

it's not only makeup... it's a business too. I'll just have to turn my cheek cause i won't stray from my mac products.


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## Wattage (May 1, 2006)

After reading that, it made me think a lot about the MAs and what they are saying. I don't know if many of you have seen the documentary "The Corporation", but essentially this video makes many good points about the purpose and direction of corporations. 

In all honesty, I feel for the MAs, but at the same time I acknowledge EL's rights to do as they please with their company. The bottom line is money, and they want to make it - a lot of it. They aren't going to make loads of cash selling exclusively to MAs, so they brought the brand into the consumer market. Yes, they are dominating shows and bringing in their staff. The MAs are upset because they are on the receiving end of the EL giant. If it were the other way around, I highly doubt the MAs would have a whole lot of apathy for a makeup brand on the rocks. 

I find it funny that they refuse to acknowledge other contributing factors, such as the fashion industry's acceptance of MAC's offers. Then too, would you not say, the fashion industries are equally responsible for this issue? Part of being an artist is being fluid and going with trends - because that's what their industry is all about. This is a trend, and this too will pass. In my opinion, smart people don't sit around and whine about it, they find a way to make it work for them and change it by being proactive - not reactive.

Maybe there isn't a place for the freelance artist right now where MAC has taken over at fashion week and what not. It will pass, MAC is capitalizing on a trend. I don't think it's anything personal, but rather a service being offered in response to a required market niche - principles of supply and demand.

I, as a consumer, like MAC because of the face and name they are very willing to put to AIDS. Maybe if some of these MA's really realized the looming global devastation of HIV and AIDS, they wouldn't be complaining so much. Second, MAC is responsible to the environment through B2M. I am a true humanitarian and environmentalist at heart. MAC really gets me where it counts. 

Call me insensitive, fine. But those who wish to live in a free market, capital based society and enjoy all the finer things it has to offer must be willing to take the bumps in the road that come with such a way of life.

I am proud to support MAC.


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## Femme Noir (May 1, 2006)

WORD TO WATTAGE!!!!

I couldn't have said it better!


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## Juneplum (May 2, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *wattage* 
_After reading that, it made me think a lot about the MAs and what they are saying. I don't know if many of you have seen the documentary "The Corporation", but essentially this video makes many good points about the purpose and direction of corporations. 

In all honesty, I feel for the MAs, but at the same time I acknowledge EL's rights to do as they please with their company. The bottom line is money, and they want to make it - a lot of it. They aren't going to make loads of cash selling exclusively to MAs, so they brought the brand into the consumer market. Yes, they are dominating shows and bringing in their staff. The MAs are upset because they are on the receiving end of the EL giant. If it were the other way around, I highly doubt the MAs would have a whole lot of apathy for a makeup brand on the rocks. 

I find it funny that they refuse to acknowledge other contributing factors, such as the fashion industry's acceptance of MAC's offers. Then too, would you not say, the fashion industries are equally responsible for this issue? Part of being an artist is being fluid and going with trends - because that's what their industry is all about. This is a trend, and this too will pass. In my opinion, smart people don't sit around and whine about it, they find a way to make it work for them and change it by being proactive - not reactive.

Maybe there isn't a place for the freelance artist right now where MAC has taken over at fashion week and what not. It will pass, MAC is capitalizing on a trend. I don't think it's anything personal, but rather a service being offered in response to a required market niche - principles of supply and demand.

I, as a consumer, like MAC because of the face and name they are very willing to put to AIDS. Maybe if some of these MA's really realized the looming global devastation of HIV and AIDS, they wouldn't be complaining so much. Second, MAC is responsible to the environment through B2M. I am a true humanitarian and environmentalist at heart. MAC really gets me where it counts. 

Call me insensitive, fine. But those who wish to live in a free market, capital based society and enjoy all the finer things it has to offer must be willing to take the bumps in the road that come with such a way of life.

I am proud to support MAC._

 






 i couldn't have put this better myself.


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## mspixieears (May 2, 2006)

Wattage, you're so damn eloquent it hurts me!

I find it hard to disagree with a lot of what you've written, but for the sake of intelligent argument/debate, but will point out one thing that may not change regardless of trend and so forth and that is the minimum wage aspect some of the freelancers brought up.

If the freelancers really are serious about MAC having drastically altered this, then despite all that MAC does for others in terms of their environmentally friendly policies and HIV/AIDS support (which is traditionally looked upon as a very 'untrendy' cause to support, so further kudos to them), it - or rather EL - has shown that it can be inhumane in aspects. As can the fashion industry, by adopting their services (as wattage rightly pointed out).

Working in our currently capitalist, democratic society should mean that you have a right to expect a certain standard of pay in your industry, and that it is protected to a certain degree (by unions etc.). Again, at the risk of sounding like a Marxist, but aren't these the sorts of things that people fought for at the beginning of the 20th century?

I'm really pleased on one hand that MAC's products are made in countries that generally is not driven by slave trade labour (I assume this perhaps? e.g. Canada, Germany, Italy and so on), but if it is forcing its competitors in its field, who don't necessarily have the opportunity to belong to a massive corporation or conglomerate like EL, to offer services for less than what they expect to earn then in some ways it is nurturing a slave trade labour-like attitude within its so-called democratic/capitalist society.

I don't necessarily agree with all the of the concerns of the freelancers, but I am concerned about their survival, as someone who hopes to make a living from the arts one day. I'm worried that their problem is bigger than them accepting very healthy competition and rising above that through their own initiative. Perhaps at present there is no place for the freelance MA to work in fashion shows, but should they want to join the model that defeated them (e.g. MAC/EL), there aren't an infinite amount of people that can be employed.

So personally speaking, I'm a bit worried about the plight of freelancers and what this could mean for many in the broader arts, despite EL's innovative drive to succeed which they are entitled to. Hopefully this explains a bit better why I'm a bit torn on this issue.

It's such a complicated, multi-faceted issue! I mean, where does it stop? Technically, freelancers to take their boycott to such a level where they could actually obliterate the industry they work for! e.g. boycotting MAC, boycotting fashion brands that support MAC, then boycotting private clients that use either MAC or wear clothing from said fashion houses and so on and so forth...you could actually get to a stage where you _should_...boycott everything!!! We have to draw a line somewhere. Damned if I know where that line is


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## bebs (May 2, 2006)

I totally agree with you wattage, again couldnt have said it better. 

mac hits me where I think it counts, if they stop well then I will re-think buying from them. 

I also love make up and artists but we do live in the real world and everybody does this, the lowest bid gets the job from construction jobs to make up its the way the world works and until free market stops there will be nothing to stop it.


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## ladydanger (May 2, 2006)

mac sends out their pro artists ( you can find their profiles on maccosmetics.com) to  fashion week along with the HARDWORKING makeup artists ( not just "sales associates") that not only show the talent, but also the dedication to give up their time in order to experience fashion week. the pro artist that keys the show hand picks who will be working along side them during fashion week ( based on talent and capability of handling such a stressful event like fashion week).


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## user1 (May 5, 2006)

I'm not going to get into the whole debate, but I can tell you, as a freelance artist of over 20 years, I helped _make_ MAC what it is today.  Yup, that's right.  I was in there in the beginning when Frank & Frank were developing this product.  Freelancers got this product out into the mainstream.  MAC never advertised until their Rupal campaign.  _WE _ put it on the map and this is how they repay us.
I tried to excuse their practices for a while but after the N.Y. shows, I took every brand under the E.L. umbrella out of my kit including MAC.  I'm not cryin' a river but I refuse to support any company that doesn't support me. 
End of story.


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## singinmys0ng (May 10, 2006)

Thanks to FemmeNoir (got this from her myspace blog)..I would like to share this with everyone else and see what you all think. 


Here is this orginal link :http://blog.kjbennett.com/?p=43

MAC & Estee Lauder Company pulls another fast one »

Boycott MAC Makeup Products






Thanks to the morally bankrupt, maniacally driven steamroller called The Estee Lauder Companies Inc. and their take no prisoners attitude of If you cant Beat Them, Buy Them!
Professional Makeup Artists worldwide are having jobs ripped out from underneath them.

The Estee Lauder Companies (who acquired MAC 4-5 years ago) methodically reduced the professional formulas and quality of the original MAC Makeup products to drugstore levels, rendering them un-usable by professional makeup artists. This was only the beginning of the new, improved money making scams coming from the feverish brains of the Estee Lauder marketing division.
The original MAC, as a courtesy, extended a iscount card (the PPID card) to pro makeup artists, hair stylists and even actors because they understood how expensive our professions were to maintain. Within a year of taking over the company, MAC/Estee Lauder instituted a yearly membership fee that had to be paid before they would renew/replace our PPID discount cards.
PAY for a DISCOUNT? WTF!

As if this wasnt a large enough slap in the face to the community that made them famous

The Estee Lauder Companies/MAC Division has aggressively approached designers, production companies, photographers, advertising agencies, etc. and offered them tons of gratis makeup and free use of their staff makeup artists in exchange for product placement or production credit. They have even gone as far as paying CASH to get their foot in the door of some agencies/companies.

The MUAs (makeup artists) that work for MAC are brainwashed into thinking that they should feel privileged to do this work and it will be important to their career. They are also told that they MUST do these gigs to gain their certification to merit promotions within the MAC organization. These certifications carry absolutely no cache or significance outside of the MAC company (usefulness???). The MAC artists are manipulated into working these high profile jobs for their usual hourly salesperson rate (maybe $16-17) while Pro MUAs would usually book the same jobs for 10x that amount.
The saddest thing is, these poor kids might get a MAC certification, but they usually get no credit (tear sheets, etc) for the actual jobMAC does. Without credit for your work, you get NOWHERE in the real industry. So they, in effect, have been PIMPED OUT BY MAC/ESTEE LAUDER and have taken jobs away from legitimate, professional MUAs.

You, the buying public and other MUAs have to help us out and make your voice heard. Professional MUAs are the people that put MAC on the map, made you covet the products because WE used them and now we are being systematically eliminated by the Estee Lauder Marketing and Promotional juggernaut. They are compromising our means of making a living (paying bills, feeding families) to sell more lipsticks.

Please dont support a company who willingly treats the people that are responsible for their enormous SUCCESS with blatant disrespect and underhanded, deceitful business practices.

Please stop purchasing MAC Makeup Products and help Professional Makeup Artists worldwide continue to work in the industry that we love.

CLICK HERE for a list of great alternatives to MAC products.

Thanks,
KJB
xoxoxo

This entry was posted on Tuesday, May 9th, 2006 at 8:51 am and is filed under WTF?, Liberty & Injustice For All. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.


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## midnightlouise (May 11, 2006)

I read something about that on MUA the other day, but I never could track down the original source. Thanks for posting it. Interesting reading to be sure...and it gives you some food for thought....


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## ladydanger (May 11, 2006)

if people are going to be pointing fingers, point em to shu uemera and smashbox too. it's not fair to blame one company alone. not to mention that there are some makeup artists out there that aren't quite professional ( no formal education or even counter experience) that take jobs away from mac stores. come on now, look at carmindy from "what not to wear" on tlc. weak artist. sorry, but true


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## Designergirl9 (May 11, 2006)

Business is business....I don't see how its the end of the world.


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## ms.marymac (May 11, 2006)

Right now it feels like the end of the world to them because they have bills to pay and are losing work.  It does happen in business all the time but it still doesn't mean the people affected shouldn't feel upset.


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## maxcat (May 11, 2006)

A bunch of the artists who work retail MAC have freelance gigs that pay them freelance rates on tv shows and film crews. They use the MAC work to stabilize their income, and MAC is in turn flexible with their schedules. The bucks for the pro card were likely to keep people from faking their creds, which are easy to do - they would have had to hire staff to do the cross checking...
As for the training being "worthless" - has he checked out the utter highway robbery charged by these so-called "schools"? 
MAC has hugely discounted student kits for accredited schools - but the private schools want these kids to buy the school's product. 

It's a catty catty business, this... 

And speaking of... I agree on Carmindy, LadyDanger. Spray foundation on EVERYONE. Pink lippies on EVERYONE. Gah.


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## Moyra (May 11, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *maxcat* 
_Yeah... um... maybe I'm among the "brainwashed" here, but did ANYONE ELSE notice that buddy's rant ends with a "click here to find great alternatives to MAC" hyperlink... 
...that links to his OWN line of makeup for you to buy?_

 
In all fairness,it links to a pretty interesting and detailed listing of his fave products, from many different companies, not HIS products.


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## maxcat (May 11, 2006)

yeah, just noticed that, so changed my post actually as you were writing... (sleep deprived insomniac!) - but after also having a think about a bunch of people that I know do freelance outside of MAC... 

you're absolutely right. Hence why I took it down... apologies all...


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## lara (May 11, 2006)

This has been hashed over again and again. I wrote a lengthy paragraph in FemmeNoirs blog, I don't want to type it out all over again.

No one is stopping MAs from voting with their wallets and choosing other brands. If MAC gets too expensive, I take my cash elsewhere. So far the local MAC pro store has been quite supportive of me, and I'm yet to be undercut by them. Take it with a grain of salt.


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## coachkitten (May 11, 2006)

Who the heck is this guy?  Is he a famous MUA? 

I was happy to see that below his opinion he allows other people to post theirs.  I still really like MAC and although I value his right to speak his mind but he has not changed anything for me.


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## lara (May 11, 2006)

P.S. This Kevin James Bennett chap can't be too against MAC, as he uses a MAC face chart on the intro page to his make-up portfolio. heh


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## Hawkeye (May 11, 2006)

Hmmm definately food for thought. 

The problem he's ranting and raving about and I do agree with him about the EL being an unreasonable monster(Come on they asked specktra to take down the color swatches and pictures even those that have been out for years) and suddenly everything is being kept secret----i understand about not wanting to keep people from stealing their ideas but something about the whole no speak no hear policy is mighty disturbing-me thinks there maybe trouble for the MAC horizon or at least for the EL horizon-they wouldn't be flipping out for pictures if there wasnt....

anyway back on track (hehe) it is true business is business but at the same time you cant really boycott EL because a lot of company's are owned by EL or L'Oreal. 

My suggestion is the same as his, if you feel uncomfortable or whatever take the money elsewhere. People talk but nobody hears it, the moment money starts talking suddenly its all you can hear.


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## mspixieears (May 11, 2006)

Damn it, seeing as the search function isn't working, I can't find that thread on MAC in backstage fashion shows which has a link to another thread on another board discussing this in great detail. I'll keep looking...

FOUND IT!

http://www.specktra.net/showthread.php?t=45649


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## msthrope (May 11, 2006)

i started using MAC in 1992 and i have seen a steady decline in what i feel was the integrity of the company.  MAC used to pride itself on not being one of those companies that released limited edition products every month or two because then people would fall in love with a product and no longer have access to it.  now almost everything MAC releases is limited edition and a good chunk of that limited edition stuff is so limited that people can't get their hands on it unless they are willing to pay inflated ebay prices.  MAC watches people who sell on ebay and will ban people from buying directly from the website or the 1-800 # if they believe they are reselling products en masse on ebay.  if they really cared about people having access to their products and not having to pay outrageous prices for stuff, they would ban the sales of their products from ebay altogether as it's quite a simple process to do.  MAC spokespeople used to be more "fringe" characters like ru and kd and now they are mainstream recycled crap like pam.  in the past couples of years trendy, gimmicky crap like the petit fours and the twirl lip glosses have started appearing more and more frequently and they give MAC a walmart/caboodles feel i don't think their products should have.  when i used to go to the MAC counter, no one EVER tried to sell me stuff i didn't want/need or that wouldn't look good on me; that practice is commonplace now.  i could go on and on.  yes, i still buy from MAC; but i buy a lot more from other lines than i ever used to.


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## SheilaSharkee (May 11, 2006)

I hope this makes the company change their practices


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## Shimmer (May 11, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *msthrope* 
_in the past couples of years trendy, gimmicky crap like the petit fours and the twirl lip glosses have started appearing more and more frequently and they give MAC a walmart/caboodles feel i don't think their products should have._

 
I have thought this myself. No problem with having fun makeup, but at the same time, gimmicky stuff is really more along the lines of Jane than MAC.


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## martygreene (May 11, 2006)

Merged the three threads on this subject matter which were running at the same time.


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## 101mynxes (May 11, 2006)

This makes for a very sobering read
(I did think MAC's marketing strategy this year has been pretty aggresive so far)


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## Wontpayretail23 (May 11, 2006)

Lets see the facts here, Estee Lauder is all about the money. Thats why they don't want people making a profit off of their product on ebay they want that money. Thats why they crack down on little fan sites (sorry, I know Specktra isn't exactly little but you know what I mean here) of the product, and why they have such strict limits at the CCOs and won't ship from them. They want your money as quick as they can get it and they don't care who's throat they have to cut to get it. But thats big business. I read the posts about them putting MUAs out of business and I see it's true. MAC was all over pics at fashion week this year. I see how fast they pump out LE collections and the latest stunt they pulled with making Sundressing sold out on day 2 so now you think you have to run out on day 1 to buy anything now. It's all to build the hype and get your money. Will I still buy MAC? Yes. Will I be blind to what they are doing and what they have become? NO.


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## SMMY (May 11, 2006)

I agree with this statement. I think Estee Lauder is using big business practices to pull in more money. How many limited editions are slated for this year? I am beginning to be concerned that in the rush to get these out and make money, the quality and production values will be compromised. The problems with sloppily packaged pigments and the Lookboxs and poor designs such as a sponge applicator for the new cheekstains, make me wonder if enough thought is being put into the product in this rush to market them.

Personally, I would be pleased to see less collections with more thought put into them, than a whole slew of not well thought out products


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## MiMaWa (Dec 30, 2006)

*Just Adding more fuel to the fire here*

http://blog.kjbennett.com/?p=84


Just a little food for thought- this isn't just fashion week etc.  This is union/contracts etc.


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## geeko (Dec 30, 2006)

well i feel that I don't think that MAC or EL is the only company that does this. I believe Loreal and other top leading cosmetic brands also do this. But why are the so called FL MAs targetting at M.A.C only? Maybe i'm being overly imaginative or whatever, but there could be "spies" or "supporters" of other giant cosmetic brands out there trying to discredit M.A.C.

No doubt some of these may be true. And no doubt that i do not like EL, the parent company of M.A.C. But all these bad talk about M.A.C will not take away my love for its products because most of the products are really good (except perhaps the lippies which i find too drying) compared to other cosmetic brands. 

i support M.A.C because of the products and NOT because i like the company. That's 2 different stories. And yes i sympathise with FL MAs, but i guess there's other ways of earning their income from, other than fashionweek...e.g. photoshoots for magazines, weddings etc. i personally feel wedding is very lucrative for FL MAs...at least over here in my country. 

But one thing i don't like about m.a.c BEING under EL is as what previous girls have posted...collections are being released too fast, undermining some of the product quality. And yeah...we don't have PRO store here in my country because the damned EL thinks our market is not big enough to justify a PRO store. 

And some of my fav MA quitted MAC because they didn't like the management....and other reasons like pay. I do miss them and learnt a lot from them, but that won't stop me from buying M.A.C because it's a cosmetic that is so different from the other brands out there in the market. In fact some brands like MUFE and MUS are trying to "copy" M.A.C, but in terms of product quality and variety, M.A.C is still at the top for me. 

And if i ever get married...and  hire a MUA to do my make up for me...i would request that she use my MAC e/s to do the eyemake up for me...because i still think their eyeshadows come out tops in quality despite some letdowns.

I am aware of the atrocities that EL is doin but this won't stop me from buying M.A.C so any amount of "hate MAC" posts won't affect me. i don't give  a damn about the company anyway but i give a damn about the product. If u give me a good product, u'll have my loyalty. Reason why i stop buying lancome is: colors are not pigmented enough, variety of range too limited and it's just not exciting enough. 

EL is doing very well in terms of its marketing for M.A.C but in terms of business ethics, they have some brushing up to do. Especiallly when it affects stakeholders (not necessarily shareholders) like the FL MUAs. 

Sorry for this long post.


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## giz2000 (Dec 30, 2006)

In response to Makeupnewbie's post:

The FL MAs are upset w/MAC because they are losing their livelihood.  What MAC is doing is approaching the fashion show promoters/designers etc., and offering their counter staff to work the shows, at little or no charge, in order to promote their products.  All good for them, but the counter staff gets no credit for their work, and gets no extra pay (they get paid exactly what they would get paid if they were working a regular shift).  So, everyone makes out well: MAC, the fashion people, the designers...everyone except the MAC MAs and the FL MAs (who used to be able to command big bucks to do a show).  Remember, lots of professional MAs get free product from cosmetic lines (free promotion for the company), so their thinking is:  if I'm not getting hired to do shows, why should I promote the line that's not giving me any work?  Thus, the backlash against MAC...

As for other lines (like MUFE) trying to "copy" MAC, I have to disagree.  MUFE is still a professional line (their professional line carries more products than MAC does), while MAC has gone more mainstream (with much success). 

I happen to use a lot of MUFE products in my kit, because their quality is tops (yes, even their shadows).  The Cirque du Soleil shows in Las Vegas use MUFE exclusively (although MAC is now providing their makeup in their traveling shows).  Plus, they've been around since 1984 (just like MAC). 

I'm not knocking MAC at all because I love working for them, and their products, for the most part, are good.  But there are other good lines out there....that being said, professionally, I will use whatever I feel works the best on my clients, whether it be MAC, MUFE, or Wet & Wild (their #666 lipliner is the bomb!)  The sad part about this whole thing is that big business, like in every industry, is undercutting the "little guy" in order to make more money.  MAC is a business, and their bottom line is to make money.  

Ok...enough of my rant...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





   Happy New Year, all!!


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## cno64 (Dec 30, 2006)

I've noticed that the more recent collections haven't shown up as "sold out" on the MAC site as quickly as they used to.
I would love to think that MAC is responding to customer input and stocking larger quantities of their LEs.
Whatever it is, I_* like*_ it!
For example, I was able to score two "Wild 'Bout You" lipsticks and three(Yeah, I know, but I'm insecure) jars of "Subtle" pigment.

The feeling that "If I even halfway like the looks of something, I'd better buy it the day it comes out!" feeling has diminished.
A little.
I'm not going to wait long before ordering the products I want from "Danse," not that it will take long. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



What MAC does that _*really*_ drives me out of my gourd is this abrupt pulling of certain "permanent" items.
I'm still bitter over "Moxie" and especially "Powerhouse."


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## giz2000 (Dec 30, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *cno64* 

 
_I'm still bitter over "Moxie" and especially "Powerhouse."_

 
Here's the funny thing...they'll come back...different names, but same colors...just be patient!


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## MisStarrlight (Dec 31, 2006)

Totally OT, but I LOVE LOVE LOVE Makeup Forever!

When I was going to leave MAC, I was going to venture over to them or FACE...but then I got a promotion, but that's another story.


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## cno64 (Dec 31, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *giz2000* 

 
_Here's the funny thing...they'll come back...different names, but same colors...just be patient!_

 
Ooooh, I hope, I hope, I hope, I hope, I hope!
That thought really makes me smile.


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## redambition (Jan 1, 2007)

something that has struck me as a "what the?" recently was how MAC discontinued their Select coverup colour correctors. The only one left is Peach, and that has the triangle of death next to it.

Why? Although I've never bought them (I think it's going a bit too far just to do my own face), I know just how useful they can be in masking imperfections. why oh why would you discontinue a makeup tool that was fairly specific to pro artists? the other thing was is that they were liquid, which was pretty unique. pretty much all of the other colour correctors i've seen were stick or pan.


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## giz2000 (Jan 1, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *redambition* 

 
_something that has struck me as a "what the?" recently was how MAC discontinued their Select coverup colour correctors. The only one left is Peach, and that has the triangle of death next to it.

Why? Although I've never bought them (I think it's going a bit too far just to do my own face), I know just how useful they can be in masking imperfections. why oh why would you discontinue a makeup tool that was fairly specific to pro artists? the other thing was is that they were liquid, which was pretty unique. pretty much all of the other colour correctors i've seen were stick or pan._

 
I don't understand it either...their green concealer was perfect...


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## Andain (Jan 3, 2007)

There's another site up about the boycott...

http://www.macboycott.com


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## cno64 (Jan 4, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Andain* 

 
_There's another site up about the boycott...

http://www.macboycott.com_

 
I have mixed feelings.
While I'm sympathetic, I'm most interested in MAC's no-animal-testing policy, so I plan to keep buying from them as long as that policy continues, and they sell products that work for me.
I may cut back some, but I need to do that anyway.
I wonder if it would do any good to write to MAC to express objection to this undercutting of freelance artists.


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## Beauty Mark (Jan 4, 2007)

Not trying to sway you to be anti-MAC (I'm conflicted for shallow reason- I like Fluidline too much), but a lot of higher end makeup doesn't test on animals. Some of them aren't significantly more than MAC. There are many lists out there; even though PETA is nuts, they have a comprehensive list that I believe is accurate


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## cno64 (Jan 4, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Beauty Mark* 

 
_Not trying to sway you to be anti-MAC (I'm conflicted for shallow reason- I like Fluidline too much), but a lot of higher end makeup doesn't test on animals. Some of them aren't significantly more than MAC. There are many lists out there; even though PETA is nuts, they have a comprehensive list that I believe is accurate_

 
I think that MUFE is also a no-animal-testing company; I may give them more of my business in the future.
As for PETA, I agree with you that they're kinda nutty, but they get the job done.

P.S. I love Blacktrack Fluidline; it's my HG liner.


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## Andain (Jan 4, 2007)

*RE: Animal Testing*

I know there are other high end brands out there that do not do testing like MUFE, Face Atelier, and Smashbox.  I'll compile a list and post it up for you guys in the next few days


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## Beauty Mark (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *cno64* 

 
_I think that MUFE is also a no-animal-testing company; I may give them more of my business in the future.
As for PETA, I agree with you that they're kinda nutty, but they get the job done.

P.S. I love Blacktrack Fluidline; it's my HG liner._

 
Here's the links from PETA

Thinking about it more, most expensive brands don't test. Stila, Hard Candy, Urban Decay, Benefit


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## martygreene (Jan 15, 2007)

*Update on the boycott- SAG Local 798 supports MAC Boycott*


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## martygreene (Jan 15, 2007)

Also, K.J. Bennett recieved this message recently, which is worth mentioning:

 Quote:

  KJ

Karen, the MAC PR person, is being less than truthful as to MAC's "goodwill intentions".
I just found your site after reading the IATSE's newsletter and doing a Google search. So this may be old news to you and your readers.
Here in South Florida besides Fashion Week and videos, MAC has also been promoting their "goodwill" by bulk emailing photographers offering free artist and make-up in exchange for magazine cover credits.
Many MUAs have noticed the drop in business.
Surprisingly, many MUAs including myself were not aware of the negative impact MAC's practices are having on our livelihood.
I've have forwarded links to your blog and "In My Kit" to every MUA I know.

Keep up the good work! It's a just cause.

GP


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## lah_knee (Jan 15, 2007)

umm all the artists i know that work for mac doing fashion shows get paid... they arent "free"  O__o


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## Dizzy (Jan 15, 2007)

I don't think that they're saying that the MAC team was doing it for free per se, but I think they mentioned that they had undercut the union MA's by doing the shows for their regular retail wages.  In comparison, it'd be practically for free since the shows were using free makeup also.  But I could be wrong.


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## lah_knee (Jan 15, 2007)

ya thats not accurate because my friends who did the mercedes benz fashion show just a couple months ago got paid hundreds of dollars for just a short while of being there :O


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## giz2000 (Jan 16, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *lah_knee* 

 
_ya thats not accurate because my friends who did the mercedes benz fashion show just a couple months ago got paid hundreds of dollars for just a short while of being there :O_

 
Some MAC artists are also freelancers (work for themselves as well in outside jobs) or belong to an agency...as long as they were working on their own, they would get paid the hundreds of dollars that they did...if they were "working" for MAC that day, they would have gotten paid their regular salary.

I know a few MAC artists here in South FL that do this...I do this myself.


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## lah_knee (Jan 16, 2007)

no they were working through mac... hmmm maybe it varies but ya


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## martygreene (Jan 16, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *lah_knee* 

 
_umm all the artists i know that work for mac doing fashion shows get paid... they arent "free"  O__o_

 
They are free to the fashion show. The artists get paid, yes, but not by the client (fashion show) but by MAC. This is NOT how the industry works generally, and this allows MAC to undercut any independant artists regardless of their being represented by an agency or not. Free to the fashion show/designers is really hard to beat for us.


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## giz2000 (Jan 17, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *lah_knee* 

 
_no they were working through mac... hmmm maybe it varies but ya_

 
I was going to answer this...but then I realized I already did! LOL!


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## martygreene (Jan 19, 2007)

Worth noting, EL currently owns the following cosmetic/fragrance lines:
Estée Lauder
Clinique
MAC
Aveda
Origins
Prescriptives
Bobbi Brown
Aramis
La Mer
Tommy Hilfiger
Jo Malone
Bumble and bumble
Donna Karan
Darphin
Michael Kors
Rodan and Fields
American Beauty
Flirt!
Good Skin
Donald Trump The Fragrance
Grassroots
Sean John
Daisy Fuentes


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## KayoS (Jan 26, 2007)

First off, i dont believe they are trashing the BRAND--they are trashing some of the actions. Granted, I am a freelance for MAC, and i won't change that anytime soon- but the point in fact still being that MAC has done some very sneaky things to eek their way into places that previously belonged to local unions or to private makeup artists. 

Take Pirates of the Carribean, for example. Brilliant movie, Originally it was NOT sponsored by MAC--and then in a quick switch, a few of the artists were replaced and became.. voila.. MAC artists and MAC got their name in the credits at the end. 

It's amazing what free makeup, or the promise of a massive discount can do for a production. Think of it this way: half of the productions usually come in AT budget, or OVER budget. MAC promising free things can help them come in UNDER budget--which lights up ANY Producers eyes. 

Some of the things MAC has done to slip into the spots of localized unions or even private makeup artists in general has been shady. I will say that first and foremost. 

Does this change my opinion on MAC at the moment? No. I am a freelance for them, and they are helping me perform the duties that i need to do to get to that level. They provide a good, quality product that i can get at a discounted level and are there for a "quick shipment" (when the right product actually comes).

Mind you, i'm not blasting MAC. Simply opening the point that some of those people are RIGHT. their opinions are just that--opinions--but some people are stating FACT. I didn't know about my Super x girlfriend, but it goes right along with Pirates. I'm starting to wonder if that isn't a trend that has been happening for a while.

We've all noticed a slight slip in product satisfaction, as well as distribution. MAC is coming out with TOO MANY collections, TOO FAST. It's not giving the basic consumer time to spend the money they want on a collection, without pulling them to the next one already. Even at that, MAC wonders why their base line is faultering, or why their lipstick line which was the base starting point for mac has become a lesser selling arena. Granted, with the chrome glasses, plushglass, etc - the lipstick line is jetting back to where it was. The simple fact remains: Most consumers CANNOT keep up with the releases of the LE products, AND still purchase the base lines. Not with the massive back to back releases.

So. There ya have it. Those are my opinions, and i'm sorry if i upset anyone. Just understand that those people that had their jobs ripped out from underneath them are probably a bit burned, upset, and downright disappointed in the MAC word: We are for the artists, by the artists.... It's starting to become a corporate monster, at some points.


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## KayoS (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *lah_knee* 

 
_ya thats not accurate because my friends who did the mercedes benz fashion show just a couple months ago got paid hundreds of dollars for just a short while of being there :O_

 
Well, it depends. Were they working through mac? Were they freelance? Were they hired specifically through MB? 

A lot of variables exist there. 

If you work FOR mac, and get hired to do a fashion show--odds are it will be FREE for the fashion show. Instead of getting paid a regular artists wages (which can be upwards of hundreds of dollars an hour), you'd get your regular MAC salary, maybe with a little bonus. 

If you worked FREELANCE, or specifically contracted through MB, you could get any rate of pay they please. Typically for larger shows like that, the price paid can get ridiculously delicious looking. 

Just think of it that way.


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## lovelypinkx (Feb 2, 2007)

Personally, I don't feel like reading all the pages of drama going on, so sorry if I don't reply to any of going, but I want to get to the point.  When I read about the situation going on with MAC and the boycott, I was pretty surprised what I learned about the whole reason of the boycott and just about MAC in general.  I think everyone should read Kevin-James Bennett's blog entries on this situation.  He was an industry artist that trained MAC artists in the workshops and a professional, highly-experienced, and well-known artist.  He shows both sides of the story and what's really going on with MAC(so be prepared to see some negative sides to MAC and comments.)  I was a bit shocked by the information I read.  

I never knew how much Estee Lauder changed MAC cosmetics.  I still love MAC products and loyal to MAC.  In fact, MAC is mostly all I've ever had(and I know I really should expand and try other cosmetics lines, especially when it comes to eyeshadows.) However, I wonder how the quality really is in comparison to other cosmetics lines, especially since Estee Lauder changed the original formulas for MAC products.  The forums I go to, girls mostly recommend using MAC cosmetics so I feel like I'm manipulated into to just sticking with MAC products, especially with how pretty they look.  It makes me disappointed also what Estee Lauder has done with MAC cosmetics, but it won't steer me away from buying some MAC products. 

I just thought people should read the blog, because it tells you a lot about what's going on with freelance MUAs and MAC cosmetics.  It might appear to MAC lovers that KJ Bennett is just hating on MAC, but I think that he's just disappointed with what MAC is doing business wise and what Estee Lauder is doing with MAC products.  It's important to look at the sections on the sides to learn about what's going on. I think this can help MAC lovers understand why people are angry and trying to boycott MAC products but at the same time not take the MAC-hating comments so seriously.  Everyone has their opinions and you can choose not to care and ignore what they have to say.


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## Villainiss (Feb 13, 2007)

I've read through this whole discussion, and I'd like to point out a couple of things that made my teeth itch.  Unfortunately, because there are SO many posts, I'm not going to directly quote, as it will take me longer to make my points, so I will instead paraphrase.

By the way, I want to make it clear that I am not participating in the boycott, as I still use my MAC products, but I have limited my MAC purchases to things that I cannot find elsewhere, and have greatly diversified my kit since this boycott was issued.  I don't want to cut ties with MAC completely, but I am in support of them changing their practices.

It was mentioned that since some of the folks on here aren't FL MA's, then why should they care?  What MAC consumers should realize is that because the these products aren't being used by FLMA's any more, the buzz is diminishing about MAC, and quickly.  Hence, EL has to create their buzz somehow, so by giving away product and services to productions, be it film, photo or fashion, they get product placement instead.  But it's not free; they still have to pay for the manufacturing, the artists still collect a paycheck, and all those people who work in corporate offices, booking those deals, need to get paid.  So, what does that have to do with the consumer?  YOU end up getting to pay their salaries by purchasing products.  You may think it's not a big deal, because there hasn't been a dramatic increase in prices of product, but when EL came into play, they changed the formulas of the product so they would be cheaper to make.  Think about it - if the product is suddenly cheaper to make, then why didn't they lower prices?  Because they have to pay their people somehow.  

Folks have said that they're going to continue buying MAC because of it's humanitarian efforts.  If a person is truly concerned about the AIDS epidemic and wants to contribute to it, volunteering with AIDS charities, and straight up donations will get you closer.  Buying a tube of MAC lipstick may help donate money to the cause, but you're still reaping a personal benefit.  Do I have all of the lipsticks?  You bet, but I still donate my time and money to various charitable organizations.

Sure, it's big business, and perhaps it may not be important to the collectors, consumers and/or occasional users, but it's important to the people who make their livings by doing makeup.  If it wasn't for the FLMA's, MAC would still be a fledgling little company trying to make it's way.  

The truth is, do I blame MAC for what's happening?  No.  I blame Estee Lauder.  They have systematically gone about accumulating smaller, reputable makeup brands and turned them into lower quality, higher priced lines driven only by money.  

There is a reason that people who apply makeup are called artists - because it IS AN ART.  Sure, you can teach anyone how to do the basics from a face chart and they can pull it off.  But people who know how to work with lighting, different skin tones, types, textures, film, print, and who are able to turn a concept into reality - that takes true talent and artistry.  Makeup began as an art, and it should remain that way - and not at the cost of daily consumers, and certainly not at the cost of a FLMA's livelihood.

And lastly, what upsets me most, is the people who work for MAC are being treated as indentured servants.  I can go do a gig, get paid, and get a tear sheet, and have proof of the work that I do.  A MAC artist will do the same gig, get paid FAR less money, and once it's all said and done, they don't get the proof of their work.  Once they leave MAC, their proof stays with MAC.  So how are they supposed to prove that they did fashion week, or that they worked on such-and-such movie?  They can't.  And for those of us in the business, it's not about someone "taking my word" for it, it's about proving what we've done.

It's a tough business that's getting tougher and tougher - heck, just the fact that there are tons of makeup schools out there pumping out "makeup artists" by the 1000's who are flooding the market - having a major company scooping up big contracts is making it just that much harder. 

It's a lot to think about, but it's worth the thought - for all of us.


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## Beachgrl07 (Feb 26, 2007)

I am not a MUA so I obviously cannot sympathize with these people but I can understand how switching from something for pro's only to something that straddles the fence can lower the bar. Lately I've even been hearing about some of the new quads with LE colors that basically suck while the other colors (staples) are excellent. I can't understand the mad dash for new stuff either (look at the Barbie craziness). Most of my stuff is primarily MAC and until things get really ugly, I'll keep on using it. I guess I do feel bad that their jobs are being taken away but what is business if there's no drama?


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## MAC Beau (Mar 1, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *KayoS* 

 
_First off, i dont believe they are trashing the BRAND--they are trashing some of the actions. Granted, I am a freelance for MAC, and i won't change that anytime soon- but the point in fact still being that MAC has done some very sneaky things to eek their way into places that previously belonged to local unions or to private makeup artists. 

Take Pirates of the Carribean, for example. Brilliant movie, Originally it was NOT sponsored by MAC--and then in a quick switch, a few of the artists were replaced and became.. voila.. MAC artists and MAC got their name in the credits at the end. 

It's amazing what free makeup, or the promise of a massive discount can do for a production. Think of it this way: half of the productions usually come in AT budget, or OVER budget. MAC promising free things can help them come in UNDER budget--which lights up ANY Producers eyes. 

Some of the things MAC has done to slip into the spots of localized unions or even private makeup artists in general has been shady. I will say that first and foremost. 

Does this change my opinion on MAC at the moment? No. I am a freelance for them, and they are helping me perform the duties that i need to do to get to that level. They provide a good, quality product that i can get at a discounted level and are there for a "quick shipment" (when the right product actually comes).

Mind you, i'm not blasting MAC. Simply opening the point that some of those people are RIGHT. their opinions are just that--opinions--but some people are stating FACT. I didn't know about my Super x girlfriend, but it goes right along with Pirates. I'm starting to wonder if that isn't a trend that has been happening for a while.

We've all noticed a slight slip in product satisfaction, as well as distribution. MAC is coming out with TOO MANY collections, TOO FAST. It's not giving the basic consumer time to spend the money they want on a collection, without pulling them to the next one already. Even at that, MAC wonders why their base line is faultering, or why their lipstick line which was the base starting point for mac has become a lesser selling arena. Granted, with the chrome glasses, plushglass, etc - the lipstick line is jetting back to where it was. The simple fact remains: Most consumers CANNOT keep up with the releases of the LE products, AND still purchase the base lines. Not with the massive back to back releases.

So. There ya have it. Those are my opinions, and i'm sorry if i upset anyone. Just understand that those people that had their jobs ripped out from underneath them are probably a bit burned, upset, and downright disappointed in the MAC word: We are for the artists, by the artists.... It's starting to become a corporate monster, at some points._

 

DITTO!


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## martygreene (Apr 28, 2007)

A few pieces of news on this, one of which is very sad.

 Quote:

  It seems that someone is very intent on removing all references petaining to the MAC Cosmetic Boycott at the MAC Cosmetic Wikipedia page.
It seems strange/suspect that the person who is continually editing/deleting the content is rather obsessive compulsive about removing any reference to the existence of the boycott including external links that have been there for months and a link to the scanned copy of the Local 798 Union Newsletter verifying their participation:

Take a look at this person's editing history...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special...s/24.46.89.151

Notice that the individual has also edited many pages pertaining to "airbrush" information. 
Wow...I wonder who this could be? Possibly the same person who vehemently claims no ties to MAC Cosmetics on many forums but denounces anyone who utters the word MAC Boycott?  
 
Also, from KJ Bennett himself:
 Quote:

  My blog got hacked and deleted. 1 year of information, comments, links... totally wiped out.  
 
I know that the girl who runs the macboycott page is going to try and pull as much from google cache as possible, KJ is just frustrated by the whole deal. I would be too. I can't believe someone did that to him.


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## Janice (Apr 28, 2007)

Oh man. Not a good development in this story. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 My symphathies are extended to KJ.


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## Beauty Mark (May 5, 2007)

It's sad that happened.

I hope it wasn't someone tied to EL/MAC. That would be really, really low to the point I would actively boycott their products.


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## BloodMittens (Aug 2, 2007)

I read this post somewhere before, and each time it really really kinda hurts me somewhere inside. Whether it's because I am extremely loyal to the brand itself or some other reason, I don't think I know for sure. But I do know this, when I was about 17, I wore extremely bright makeup, and I was looking for a really nice green glitter liner, I looked everywhere for one, in my gigantic mall. Through all the stores, the ulta, clinique, benefit, sephora, I couldn't find that just right liner I was looking for. Then I walked into MAC and found just that color, but not only that, bright matte colors I had been searching for that wasn't a smudge or a liner I would have to layer and layer on my lids to get a great 80's color look.

I fell in love on the spot. And that's when I also met my first (and current) favorite MA of all time. She smiled at me, didn't treat me like a kid that I was so used to being treated like when I went up to a makeup counter. She talked with me about MAC and told me their motto and showed me some swatches on her hand. We exchanged names and have been counter friends ever since.

It's true that MAC is owned by EL and everything, but that really doesn't bother me. MAC is still trendy, and even though they are popping out more collection than Angelina Jolie is adopting kids, I still love them. 

And this:

 Quote:

  Though I despise doing the trend shows that all of the department stores are producing, I always get a huge chuckle at the shoppers who run over to the LM or BB counters because some Cyndi Lauper-looking idiot at the MAC counter made them look like a pale clown. As usual, MAC hires a ton of 19 year-old girls who like to apply garrish makeup on themselves and the clients. And those, fortunately for the other lines, are the ones working these events. MAC doesn't hire "artists" anymore - they would rather groom these PYTs into little corporate look-a-likes. Somehow - whether Spring or Fall trend, they use lots of silver and navy. Which is so not a good look on most people... And the horrified clients come running to the actual artist brands to be "fixed".  
 
pisses me off. 

How dare someone say that being a 19 year old (I'm 19) means you cannot be an "artist". I am actually almost shaking right now because of this. I worked my ass off for years painting and drawings, like 12 years of my life! Saying that someone cannot be good at doing makeup because they are 19 years old? I can understand that sometimes girls come in, get their makeup done, and it doesn't look as good as they pictured it in their heads. Same with haircuts! But who is to say that the MA who did your makeup is not a good "artist"? You may not look good, but the girl next to you could look beautiful to you. This really bothers me, I am extremely loyal to MAC and to their mottos. I care a lot about the brand and it really really btohers me to see someone talk this way about something and call people untalented just because they are different and because they use a different style of applying makeup. 

OOOH. Sorry. I'm done ranting. I'm really emo today


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## flowerhead (Aug 2, 2007)

^I totally agree with everything you wrote..


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## Beauty Mark (Aug 2, 2007)

While I think the age thing was ridiculous to bring it, I think KJ makes some good points about how the brand has changed and what it's doing to the makeup industry. The man who maintained that blog isn't just some bitter nobody; while taste is subjective, he's much more of an authority on cosmetic aesthetics than a lot of people are.

It's great you like MAC so much. I still like some of the things there, but at the same time, I do question their ethics. Seeing how undercutting has hurt other industries/fields, I'm really against it.

I personally don't understand brand loyalty. I mean, I love Sephora, but I don't get that offended when people hate the place.


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## BloodMittens (Aug 7, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Beauty Mark* 

 
_While I think the age thing was ridiculous to bring it, I think KJ makes some good points about how the brand has changed and what it's doing to the makeup industry. The man who maintained that blog isn't just some bitter nobody; while taste is subjective, he's much more of an authority on cosmetic aesthetics than a lot of people are.

It's great you like MAC so much. I still like some of the things there, but at the same time, I do question their ethics. Seeing how undercutting has hurt other industries/fields, I'm really against it.

I personally don't understand brand loyalty. I mean, I love Sephora, but I don't get that offended when people hate the place._

 
I'm not really offended that they hate the place. One of my friends doesn't like MAC because of Pamela Anderson and she refuses to go in there because she was a spokesperson. I don't care if she doesn't like them or anything. But when someone bashes the MA's without knowing them, that is what really really bothers me. Judging goes on all the time, but to call someone untalented because they are different really bothers me. 

I have noticed the incline of color stories at the same time as the great products coming out once in awhile now... not all the time. It really bothers me that Estee Lauder has kinda overtaken the color collections and have been tossing them out there two or three a month. 

I can sympathize with freelance makeup artists that have gone to school that are losing jobs because of MAC. I do feel sorry for them because in reality, that's what I wanted to do for a long time... but I don't have the money for schooling. I've tried for scholarships and failed miserably because most places think I'm a lost cause because of my extremely bad ADD and test taking skills. 

So MAC is really a good option for me at this point, makeup is the thing that calms me down and keeps me focused. So yeah... that's another reason why I love MAC so much. They've kinda opened a door for me in a career in makeup that I really have no chance of getting with a school.


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## IvyTrini (Aug 9, 2007)

If people want to run to the counter everytime MAC comes out with a new line, then so be it! Maybe other lines should come out with more innovative products to excite their followers like that. Anyway....I am not an artist although I would like to become one. I grew up in a place where good quality makeup was hard to get and super expensive. They also did NOTHING for the skintones of those in the Caribbean region nor did their lines relate to the vibe. I discovered MAC years ago and I will forever be a fan. I have used products from other lines and usually maybe only one colour in a collection may appeal to me. MAC consistantly brings out amazing colours and it shows women of colour that they don't always have to wear the basic browns or plums and have opened up a whole new colour palette when no one else did. They made colour exciting and acceptable. They have some of the most innovative print ads and I just love their all embracing concept of all ages, all races, all sexes.


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## Beauty Mark (Aug 9, 2007)

The fact they do some good isn't the issue. It's what they're doing wrong is the issue. Like most things that people are against, it's not an easy, obvious thing to be against or for (see: Wal-Mart and the many discussions here about it).

 Quote:

  Judging goes on all the time, but to call someone untalented because they are different really bothers me.  
 
I assume what KJ saw at fashion week provoked it, and I'm going to assume that the people used for fashion week are supposed to be the best. Again, I wasn't there, so I can't say.

It's not a nice thing to say, but some people simply are untalented.

While I'm not an MA nor do I ever intend on being one, undercutting in more personalized business bothers me, because you're screwing over a lot of people and yourself ultimately. I also feel like MUAs don't necessarily get the respect they deserve, which is why undercutting can occur.


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## aziza (Aug 12, 2007)

^^^

 I have to agree with you. 

I'm having a hard time understanding why everyone -_especially_ makeup artists- are so loyal to MAC/EL.  There are many, many, alternatives out there (Nixie, NARS, UD, Yaby, Kiehls, LM, Smashbox etc, etc, etc)... so why support a company that is essentially driving you out of business? 

All you out there who desire to be makeup artists... wisen up and look at the larger picture. It's only going to worsen if industry pros and consumers continue to accept and excuse their unethical business practices. Right now its runway shows and film....who knows how bad it'll get in the future.


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## devin (Sep 22, 2007)

i agree with a couple of the previous posters. Mac is one of the very few companies in this gigantic industry that caters to darker skinned clients and is readily accessible. There are tons of companies whose colors don't go past Halle Berry of Jada Pinkett and are missing out on the lovely deeper tones and if they do they are too red or ashy looking. i don't know how people can make a blanket statement about an entire group of people or company. First off I doubt that they know every employee who works for Mac of which I am one of. To judge and say that "all" or even "most" Mac artists are untalented and dress and look like clowns and wear their makeup as such is ridiculous. Now all of a sudden none of the Mac products are any good and everything about Mac is wrong, I just don't get it. I do understand being upset about your jobs being taken, because I would feel the same way, but this is what large companies do and it has been going on for ages. Money rules the world. I just get tired of everyone making blanket statements about Mac as a whole, stick to what you know, because I know plenty of amazingly talented artists at Mac.

Now I have said my peace. I'm done!


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## martygreene (Sep 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *devin* 

 
_i agree with a couple of the previous posters. Mac is one of the very few companies in this gigantic industry that caters to darker skinned clients and is readily accessible. There are tons of companies whose colors don't go past Halle Berry of Jada Pinkett and are missing out on the lovely deeper tones and if they do they are too red or ashy looking. i don't know how people can make a blanket statement about an entire group of people or company. First off I doubt that they know every employee who works for Mac of which I am one of. To judge and say that "all" or even "most" Mac artists are untalented and dress and look like clowns and wear their makeup as such is ridiculous. Now all of a sudden none of the Mac products are any good and everything about Mac is wrong, I just don't get it. I do understand being upset about your jobs being taken, because I would feel the same way, but this is what large companies do and it has been going on for ages. Money rules the world. I just get tired of everyone making blanket statements about Mac as a whole, stick to what you know, because I know plenty of amazingly talented artists at Mac.

Now I have said my peace. I'm done!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 
The "none of the products are any good" is pretty well founded, and can be backed up with physical data. The formulations have changed drastically, and not for the good for a professional. The inclusion of more waxes and oils which are detrimental to the skin, inclusion of SPF and titanium dioxide, addition of more fillers, and the reduction of pigment quality.

As for skin tones, yes- MAC caters to some darker skin tones for the consumer market. MAC used to cater to even darker skintones, and lighter, however these shades were discontinued when the aformentioned changes began to occurr. Also, there is definitely no shortage of lines who have wonderful matches for ALL global skin tones in professional products, and as always there is no match for custom mixing from the base pigments (which any good professional should know how to do).

Saying that this is what big companies do- I have to disagree. LVMH is a HUGE company, and doesn't do this. Big companies may buy other companies, but it's very unwise of them to destroy the purchasing base on which they were built. Having SAG and IATSE angry at your practices is really not a good way to maintain your branding, I hate to say it.


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## erynnj (Jan 1, 2008)

I feel that mac has gone down hill over the years quality wise, i am not going to sit here and say i hate them never buy their stuff again but i buy alot less because I am less than impressed with the quality of the new-er stuff not to  mention the price has gone up way too much. Why would i spend $14 on an eyeshadow at mac when i can get one that IMO is much better quality like UD. I do feel that the whole idea of mac being a make up artist line has kind of vanished. Its more a consumer driven, sell, sell, sell company now. It used to be based on makeup artistry and REALLY good artists working there now, you are lucky if you a good artist works behind your counter. Not to mention the turn over with them every single time I go to my store its different people. I remember 6 years ago I had 3 artists that I would visit regularly in my local store. Now its a new face every time so wheres the loyalty? And quite honestly I know I would buy more when someone recognized me and took the the extra time with me but now, no one recognizes me and is quick to make the sale no more hey Erynn! how are you??.... so in turn they have kind of lost me as the die hard buy everything finatic that i use to be. *sigh* I miss those days!


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## chocolategoddes (Jan 22, 2008)

I'm sure this has been said before but here's my opinion:
From what i know, MAC isn't what it used to be. It isn't as exlusive and high-quality as it once was and there are tons of other brands out there that could be better than MAC. But I just love the _idea _of MAC. How fun and artrsy the whole thing is. Its not just about looking pretty. I'll agree that the MAs are not really qualified, many of the employees i've encountered are not what I'd consider MAC worthy. And I hope that one day soon, MAC will return to the days that I've heard of so much on this site. But for now, I'm still gonna spend my allowance on MAC because I love the stuff, I want to support the brand, and hey,MAC is cool so I'm gonna be tempted to buy MAC just to say, " yeah, I'm wearing all MAC today!" We all have a little bit of that inside of us.


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## BEA2LS (Jan 28, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *lovemichelle* 

 
_I don't know about everyone else, but where I live people swarm the Clinique counter._

 
same as where i live.. clinique is much more popular than mac.  don't get me wrong, i have many things that are mac and enjoy their products but it's just not the be all to end all around here. i like brighter, bolder looks but neuterals are much more popular (btw i live about an hour or so from nyc, so it's not exactly like i live in the middle of nowhere..)


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## MellyMac (Jan 28, 2008)

It is unfortunate that a company that gives so much is being targeted with such fury. Bottom line, when you enter into the industry as a MUA, hairstylist, whatever, you have to hold your head up high and represent yourself as a professional and take the higher road. Mac is the most recognized cosmetic company in the industry, and with that tile comes a lot of respect and disrespect too. When your on top people love you and hate you. There are so many opportunities for MUA's to become freelancers with MAC which will only add to their credibility as an artist. Like it or not, MAC artists  are the most trained and most knowledgeable when it comes to most recent trends, techniques and they know their products. I love MAC and always will for their continued Viva Glam contributions and I respect the fact that they don't have to advertise but still lead the industry in trend. 

Thank you MAC cosmetics for your continued commitment to push the envelope and yet keeping real for everyone of all ages, races and sexes!!!!
MUAH!


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## Kuuipo (Jan 28, 2008)

I think being under the Estee Lauder umbrella has made MAC even more acessible to people-its now in virtually every department store. You can find it all over the world! (with some companies you virtually have to hop on a plane!) It's huge,too huge to think about. With all this hugeness, MAC can be charitable.


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## pixichik77 (Jan 29, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *MellyMac* 

 
_ Mac is the most recognized cosmetic company in the industry.......     Like it or not, MAC artists  are the most trained and most knowledgeable when it comes to most recent trends, techniques_

 
I must respectfully disagree with you on these two points; MAC may be more visible and known to the layman, and quite ubiquitous, but far from the most recognized and innovative "in the industry."  And that happens to be one of the reasons sooooo many working artists tend to be angry/ambivialent with MAC.  Many don't even use MAC, or only a few products. For example; a main reason MAC is used so extensively on Wicked is because the designer used to work for MAC; had he worked for another line he may have used that instead.  Many, many other lines have more pigment, more range, and more versatility than MAC for the industry.


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## meiming (Jan 30, 2008)

wow, just learning of this quite controversial issue has really blown me away


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## scorplove (Mar 16, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *pixichik77* 

 
_I must respectfully disagree with you on these two points; MAC may be more visible and known to the layman, and quite ubiquitous, but far from the most recognized and innovative "in the industry."  And that happens to be one of the reasons sooooo many working artists tend to be angry/ambivialent with MAC.  Many don't even use MAC, or only a few products. For example; a main reason MAC is used so extensively on Wicked is because the designer used to work for MAC; had he worked for another line he may have used that instead.  Many, many other lines have more pigment, more range, and more versatility than MAC for the industry._

 
I agree with you that MAC does NOT have to advertise and can literally sell itself.  MAC customers COME TO THEM and most will attend any event that MAC throws just because it's MAC.  

I also agree that there are BETTER pro lines out there for film, TV, photos, stage, etc. and were created for those purposes.  I was trained at a time when MAC didn't exist or wasn't really known, except by independent artists.  In the beginning, when MAC first came on the scene they had LOVELY stuff and every MUA was enthralled with it.  The backlash came when MAC began undercutting the freelance MUAs at shows and photoshoots.  The final nail in the coffin when they threw their weight around in TV and Film and started messing with the powerful makeup artist union.  You don't do that.  It's very "Walmartish".  MAC is becoming the Walmart and Macys of the makeup industry and that's not a good thing.

Another thing I will say is NOT everyone knows how to use MAC's foundations properly.  Almost all the women that I've ever met or came to my counter had really messed up skin or the foundation looked like garbage on them.  The MAC girls on the other hand ALWAYS look flawless.  I finally asked one of them what the secret is and they said you MUST USE A BRUSH WITH STUDIO FIX or the liquid foundations.  She also said many of these women will wear a liquid underneath the STUDIO FIX and wonder why their look like crap.  MAC sells PRESSED POWDERS that are supposed to be worn over their foundations.  NOT THE STUDIO FIX.  Also, Studio Fix is not supposed to be used as a touch up throughout the day.  

It really is a pro line that's being used for streetwear.  Many pro lines can be used this way, the key is knowing how to not look ridiculous in the street.

I hope this situation with MAC has been resolved.  It is true that they have severely deflated the wages for the freelance industry though.  Many artists are having a difficult time forgetting that.


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## breechan (Mar 16, 2008)

I hope all the people who feel this way are contacting MAC via their contact us section of their website. It's fine to vent your frustrations among friends and on discussion boards, but if people don't contact MAC, things will never change. Basically, I'm encouraging you all to contact MAC and tell them how you feel.


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## User49 (Apr 23, 2008)

The fact that mac has hate websites ect just goes to show that they have made a huge impact on the world. Whenever something big happens there will be people who don't notice, people who love it and people who hate it. I think it's a compliment because it just shows how big mac are. I personally don't understand why if you don't like something you have to pay any mind to it so they should get a life really. But I'm just glad we have a little website that embraces it! I love mac and wouldn't know what to do without it. The other brands just don't compare. x


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## glamdoll (May 1, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *glitternmyveins* 

 
_The fact that mac has hate websites ect just goes to show that they have made a huge impact on the world. Whenever something big happens there will be people who don't notice, people who love it and people who hate it. I think it's a compliment because it just shows how big mac are. I personally don't understand why if you don't like something you have to pay any mind to it so they should get a life really. But I'm just glad we have a little website that embraces it! I love mac and wouldn't know what to do without it. The other brands just don't compare. x_

 
I think you don't comprehend the issue with MAC. You are seeing it from a customer point of view, you love the product and think "well who cares if others dont like it" Here we are talking about people's jobs. What they do for a living to feed their families, to pay their bills.

I personally don't have anything against MAC, I like the product but I know there are other brands just as good and even better.

Glittermyveins, I don't know what you do for a living, but imagine that in your job field, someone you helped get a job, you put them on the map. Then suddenly that person is putting you out of work by doing the job for cheaper even free, not only that thier job performance is not as good as it use to be but when they charge they charge more (in reference to the product).

It does have an impact on people because what they do for a living, is being jeopardyzed.


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## Caramel_QT (May 1, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *scorplove* 

 
_Another thing I will say is NOT everyone knows how to use MAC's foundations properly. Almost all the women that I've ever met or came to my counter had really messed up skin or the foundation looked like garbage on them. The MAC girls on the other hand ALWAYS look flawless. I finally asked one of them what the secret is and they said you MUST USE A BRUSH WITH STUDIO FIX or the liquid foundations. She also said many of these women will wear a liquid underneath the STUDIO FIX and wonder why their look like crap. MAC sells PRESSED POWDERS that are supposed to be worn over their foundations. NOT THE STUDIO FIX. Also, Studio Fix is not supposed to be used as a touch up throughout the day. _

 
Yep. But I've actually been told both ways of wearing the SF by MAC artists. One said I could set my foundation (studio tech) with Studio Fix (???) um, can you say breakout city?? Of course I never did that. Another told me to set with MSF natural, blot or the regular pressed powder. I use the MSF religiously and blot with my blot powder throughout the day - which I find can layer up and cake during the day, if I don't use a brush.

 I dunno go figure.


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## hollyberry84 (May 1, 2008)

*I have been freelance MUA for 3 years and I do consider myself an "ARTIST". Not only an artist but someone who genuinly cares about the people I work with.
I thank MAC for hiring me and seeing my potential even if at first, when I was just starting to follow my dream.
Why do are there so many haters? I believe true artist don't dwell on negativity and focus on beautifying all around them. Accentuating the positive! (Im sure youve heard that one!!)
Let people love MAC! MAC is a phenomanon!
*


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## giz2000 (May 6, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *hollyberry84* 

 
_*I have been freelance MUA for 3 years and I do consider myself an "ARTIST". Not only an artist but someone who genuinly cares about the people I work with.
I thank MAC for hiring me and seeing my potential even if at first, when I was just starting to follow my dream.
Why do are there so many haters? I believe true artist don't dwell on negativity and focus on beautifying all around them. Accentuating the positive! (Im sure youve heard that one!!)
Let people love MAC! MAC is a phenomanon!
*_

 
The "haters" are the independent MA artists that are not affiliated with MAC.  They are getting shut out of lots of what used to be high paying gigs because MAC offers the production companies/fashion designers, etc free product and labor.  I freelance for MAC as well, but I also do my gigs on the side, and let me tell you, any production company is going to go for the free goods and services before paying an MA top dollar for his/her skills.  It's simple economics...why pay when you can get it for free?  Of course, you get what you pay for...


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## pixichik77 (May 6, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *giz2000* 

 
_The "haters" are the independent MA artists that are not affiliated with MAC.  They are getting shut out of lots of what used to be high paying gigs because MAC offers the production companies/fashion designers, etc free product and labor.  I freelance for MAC as well, but I also do my gigs on the side, and let me tell you, any production company is going to go for the free goods and services before paying an MA top dollar for his/her skills.  It's simple economics...why pay when you can get it for free?  Of course, you get what you pay for..._

 
I cannot agree more. And in reality, everyone loses. MAC is not only undercutting the union artists, but not paying their artists the same rate. You know how "everyone" get upset at Walmart for undercutting prices and yet only paying their workers minimum, or forcing them to be part time so Walmart doesn't have to pay benefits? This is the same thing; because MAC is approaching the companies, and you hire MAC, not thru, say, the union (which has it's own representation and contracts), MAC can pay their artists whatever they want. Freelance pay, etc. 

We are not being haters just to hate. We are upset becaus eit is bringing the entire industry down. All the things artist before us have fought for are being eroded by these practices.


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## foxykita143 (Jun 6, 2008)

Ok...I DO understand what they are saying, but honestly, if you have a talent, people will come to you no matter what. Yeah I know it makes business a little harder to come by, but if people who use MAC are clones and talentless, dont you think your client would see that the new look doesn't compare to the one you used to give her, and she will come back to you? If she doesn't, it would have happened regardless of any MAC "brainwashing". Her friend would tell her about "the guy who did Sharon's bridal make up" and BOOM. Client gone. And yes, MAC does come out very quickly, but look at the demand, even just on Speckta, to find out what the next line will be and the quickest way to get them. I think it's fun to be able to collect something I love, and have something in common with thousands of other girls and guys. It's part of the whole thrill of buying MAC to me. And yes, you can say thats a sales technique which it probably is but even still, I genuinely love the colors, the consistency, and the quality. I've never once been able to find concealers or foundations that work for me but with MAC I found it on the first try. I dont think it's a bad thing that there are so many products coming out, that gives you so many more options and colors to choose from and play with.  I dont think EVERYTHING they have is the new super product because honestly--some of it is pure crap. That doesn't change the fact that many of the perms are always going to be amazing and totally worth every penny.




-edit- I really dont mean to sound like a b**** towards the MUA who are getting the short end of the stick, but shutting down/boycotting a major company wont do anything, because it will just keep happening. Now I'm not saying anyone on here said they wanted to do that, all I'm saying is there will ALWAYS be competition, no matter who or what its coming from. This just gives you an opportunity to pull out all of your creativity and really test your skills and perfect your craft. So if you look at it from an optimistic point of view and consider it a challenge, it may actually benefit you in the long run.


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## cno64 (Jun 7, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *foxykita143* 

 
_ And yes, MAC does come out very quickly, but look at the demand, even just on Speckta, to find out what the next line will be and the quickest way to get them. I think it's fun to be able to collect something I love, and have something in common with thousands of other girls and guys. It's part of the whole thrill of buying MAC to me. And yes, you can say thats a sales technique which it probably is but even still, I genuinely love the colors, the consistency, and the quality. I've never once been able to find concealers or foundations that work for me but with MAC I found it on the first try. I dont think it's a bad thing that there are so many products coming out, that gives you so many more options and colors to choose from and play with.  I dont think EVERYTHING they have is the new super product because honestly--some of it is pure crap. That doesn't change the fact that many of the perms are always going to be amazing and totally worth every penny.



_

 
I have to agree. I'm not an artist, just another bulging-eyed, foaming-at-the-mouth consumer, but I think the LE collections are lots of fun, especially since once in a while MAC comes out with a product like "Sunnydaze" pigment, or "Port Red" lipstick, and I love it so much that I can't seem to get enough. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







It's not just the LE products, either. I didn't discover MAC until 2005, when I was 41 years old, and had survived a catastrophic illness. When I got "Satin Taupe" eyeshadow, it was as if I'd been looking for it all my adult life, and just hadn't realized it. The shade, the finish, the undertones are all just so _*perfect*_ on me. 
It was the same with "Powerhouse" lipstick(now discontinued, but I'm backed up). I had been consciously looking, since my mid 20s, for a lipstick that would look genuinely red, NOT pink, on me, and "Powerhouse" came through for me! It was a revelation. No more being asked, "_Why_ are you wearing _pink_ lipstick with a red top?"


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## foxykita143 (Jun 17, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *cno64* 

 
_I have to agree. I'm not an artist, just another bulging-eyed, foaming-at-the-mouth consumer, but I think the LE collections are lots of fun, especially since once in a while MAC comes out with a product like "Sunnydaze" pigment, or "Port Red" lipstick, and I love it so much that I can't seem to get enough. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







It's not just the LE products, either. I didn't discover MAC until 2005, when I was 41 years old, and had survived a catastrophic illness. When I got "Satin Taupe" eyeshadow, it was as if I'd been looking for it all my adult life, and just hadn't realized it. The shade, the finish, the undertones are all just so *perfect* on me. 
It was the same with "Powerhouse" lipstick(now discontinued, but I'm backed up). I had been consciously looking, since my mid 20s, for a lipstick that would look genuinely red, NOT pink, on me, and "Powerhouse" came through for me! It was a revelation. No more being asked, "Why are you wearing pink lipstick with a red top?"_

 

I totally agree. I've never had one line where I can walk in a find a new HG or new top 5 favorite EVERYTIME I walk in the store


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## duddelle (Aug 10, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *user4* 

 
_"MAC is great for MUA wannabees at this point."
"Again, this is just my opinion, as I am sure there are many out there who will argue with me and think that they are more bomb diggity than ever...."

WHAT I DONT UNDERSTAND IS WHY PEOPLE FEEL THE NEED TO SAY SHIT LIKE THIS AND DISRESPECT OTHER'S OPINIONS. PEOPLE CAN BE SO SELF INVOLVED IN THEIR LITTLE IM A MAKE UP ARTIST WORLD THAT THEY FORGET THAT THEY STARTED OFF IN THE SAME PLACE AS EVERYONE ELSE DID... STEALING THEIR MOMMY'S LIPSTICK WHEN THEY WERE 5!!! MAKES ME KINDA MAD!_

 
Makes me KINDA mad too MAN. What do these make up artists expect? Of course, MAC will try to sponsor as many shows as they can. That's one of the advantages of being a company. It is unfortunate for some independent MAs who have to compete with MAC MA's rates.


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## duddelle (Aug 10, 2008)

above


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## duddelle (Aug 10, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *foxykita143* 

 
_Ok...I DO understand what they are saying, but honestly, if you have a talent, people will come to you no matter what. Yeah I know it makes business a little harder to come by, but if people who use MAC are clones and talentless, dont you think your client would see that the new look doesn't compare to the one you used to give her, and she will come back to you? If she doesn't, it would have happened regardless of any MAC "brainwashing". Her friend would tell her about "the guy who did Sharon's bridal make up" and BOOM. Client gone. And yes, MAC does come out very quickly, but look at the demand, even just on Speckta, to find out what the next line will be and the quickest way to get them. I think it's fun to be able to collect something I love, and have something in common with thousands of other girls and guys. It's part of the whole thrill of buying MAC to me. And yes, you can say thats a sales technique which it probably is but even still, I genuinely love the colors, the consistency, and the quality. I've never once been able to find concealers or foundations that work for me but with MAC I found it on the first try. I dont think it's a bad thing that there are so many products coming out, that gives you so many more options and colors to choose from and play with.  I dont think EVERYTHING they have is the new super product because honestly--some of it is pure crap. That doesn't change the fact that many of the perms are always going to be amazing and totally worth every penny.




-edit- I really dont mean to sound like a b**** towards the MUA who are getting the short end of the stick, but shutting down/boycotting a major company wont do anything, because it will just keep happening. Now I'm not saying anyone on here said they wanted to do that, all I'm saying is there will ALWAYS be competition, no matter who or what its coming from. This just gives you an opportunity to pull out all of your creativity and really test your skills and perfect your craft. So if you look at it from an optimistic point of view and consider it a challenge, it may actually benefit you in the long run._

 

RIGHT ON WOMAN. I got yo MAC BAC. <3


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## Mabelle (Aug 10, 2008)

Wow. SO they're surprised that a huge multi million dollar company is offering cheap service, and that clients would rather go with said huge reputable more cost effective company and not a free lance makeup artist?

Welcome to the real world. This is the same thing in every field. Big companies will take you're work if you can't compete, it sucks, but that doesn't make them evil. It makes them successful.


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## Lexxiii (Aug 25, 2008)

I've read these sorts of things about MAC before... and honestly, at this point it doesn't bother me since I'm a casual freelance artist who doesn't get big enough gigs for it to make a difference. However, I'm certain that once I'm older and start becoming higher up on the freelance scale this sort of thing from a company will not stand and I will refuse to support such scheming.


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## DirtyPlum (Oct 10, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Mabelle* 

 
_Welcome to the real world. This is the same thing in every field. Big companies will take you're work if you can't compete, it sucks, but that doesn't make them evil. It makes them successful._

 
Thats kinda my take on it too... its not nice for MUAs or for any other self-employed person in any industry but it happens all the time.

The same thing happens for small shop owners... large multinational supermarkets (for eg) will come into a town and wipe out business for any sole trading grocery store.  

Boycotting is pointless IMO  - if u cant beat em, join them.


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## DirtyPlum (Oct 10, 2008)

As for the comment about MAC/EL 'pimping' out their MUAs for these gigs on the cheap, I'm sorry but sounds like someone has an inferiority complex.  MAC MUAs have great opportunities to freelance with the company and absulotely nothing or noone prohibits us from freelancing independently if thats what we wanna do.


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## SonRisa (Oct 15, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *scorplove* 

 
_  I finally asked one of them what the secret is and they said you MUST USE A BRUSH WITH STUDIO FIX or the liquid foundations.  She also said many of these women will wear a liquid underneath the STUDIO FIX and wonder why their look like crap.  MAC sells PRESSED POWDERS that are supposed to be worn over their foundations.  NOT THE STUDIO FIX.  Also, Studio Fix is not supposed to be used as a touch up throughout the day.  _

 
Can I just say that we were more than encouraged at my counter to sell studio fix as if it were a product to use OVER foundation and for retouching. Why? Because it will increase your sale as it costs more than pressed powders. Straight out of managers/trainers mouths...


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## Ruby_Woo (Oct 15, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *SonRisa* 

 
_Can I just say that we were more than encouraged at my counter to sell studio fix as if it were a product to use OVER foundation and for retouching. Why? Because it will increase your sale as it costs more than pressed powders. Straight out of managers/trainers mouths..._

 
That is weird, because on my end, I use to do that when I didn't know studio fix was meant to be used on its own. I have been told *not* to sell it as a setting powder as we do carry select pressed and blot. And we also tell our customers to not retouch with it because, its like applying liquid foundation again.

weird.


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## katie_070405 (Nov 2, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *SonRisa* 

 
_Can I just say that we were more than encouraged at my counter to sell studio fix as if it were a product to use OVER foundation and for retouching. Why? Because it will increase your sale as it costs more than pressed powders. Straight out of managers/trainers mouths..._

 

Maybe you just have a umm....greedy manager.  Sounds like they're about making sales instead of teaching people about products.  kind of OT, but...
I am a personal trainer.....sometimes I have people ask about the gym I work at who are* extremely* overweight, diabetic, & can barely move around.  Our gym doesn't have a pool (which is exactly what they need, water aerobics)....or aerobic classes, it is a hardcore bodybuilding gym.  Am I going to suggest my gym.....hell no....why??  Because eventuly they will see that I lied to them just to get a sale. Sorry for the rant.....imo  it's just bad business, & it sounds like your manager doesn't care.


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## jacobsmakeup (Nov 13, 2008)

Well I work Freelance in the commercial world and music video world. It has been really slow right now and I havent worked in a month. So I though about working for MAC to let the time go by and not be competly broke, but after reading this I am not so sure... any suggestions?


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## DirtyPlum (Nov 14, 2008)

^^ I wouldnt be put off... MAC certainly doesnt hinder anyones chances to freelance and its not like they are watching each and every one of us like Big Brother to hijack any freelance assignments we may pick up...


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## Panamenanegra (Dec 10, 2008)

For me I like "some" mac products because they work for me and the clients I've used them on. I dont buy something just because it has a certain name on it. Take the foundation for instance..I HATE Mac foundation. I try to convince everyone I deal with, including friends and family, to switch to MUFE. Especially being very darkskinned I have trouble finding a wide range of things that will work on me personally. 

I see the concern about them taking jobs. I've had a few mac stores try to convince me to work there instead of freelance but the way I see it..MAC isnt going to out pay me what I make at my 9 to 5 job and I dont have to deal with a retail setting so I would never trade in this freelance situation. Half of the MAs i've run into have no idea what they're talking about. 

I dont see myself boycotting MAC anytime soon but I can see the concern of the freelancer about how they are affecting the market. 

Gosh that was long...


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## pixichik77 (Dec 10, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *DirtyPlum* 

 
_^^ I wouldnt be put off... MAC certainly doesnt hinder anyones chances to freelance and its not like they are watching each and every one of us like Big Brother to hijack any freelance assignments we may pick up..._

 
It's not about freelance work. It's about union contracts. The people concerned are those swinging on broadway, or working regional opera contracts, etc.  I know some people personally who have had MAC call them in an attempt to "give them free product" but in exchange wanted a) to send their own people and b) have "makeup by MAC" in the program. Even thought it was designed by someone else. I have a friend (one of my references) who has even worked for MAC; she was hired to designe a show. She did that. MAC gave product, therefore got the credit. That was not the deal presented to her when she was hired. MAC came in after. As for jobs (we'll look at Broadway for this example), the difference is: those swinging on shows now apply and are hired face to face. MAC wants the contract, then to send who ever they want. The makeup heads have no call in who is working for them. This hurts the end product, IMO.

So this is not about MAC preventing someone from freelancing. It is about MAC misrepresenting thir involvement, taking credit from others, and taking away jobs.


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## Panamenanegra (Dec 10, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *SonRisa* 

 
_Can I just say that we were more than encouraged at my counter to sell studio fix as if it were a product to use OVER foundation and for retouching. Why? Because it will increase your sale as it costs more than pressed powders. Straight out of managers/trainers mouths..._

 
I hate to bring everything back to Claires but years ago I was a store manager of Claires. At one point they wanted all the stores to push this 99cent pocket knife as an add on to sales to bring your average sales up over 9 dollars per transaction. I would constantly get in trouble because I refused to sell a pocket knife to children. If there was a child in there trying to sneak it into the purchase i would tell the parents (if they even bothered to be in the store) that it was indeed a knife and they should think twice before buying it. Most of the time they assumed it was just a nail file or something and were upset that we would have them on the counter like that. Instead I would try to push other products in the store as addons.

My point is that as MAC MA's have the power once they get a customer in the chair to convince them to buy anything. If you know the studio fix isnt a good choice for them its your ethical duty to the customer to suggest something else. When they figure out they've been mislead it will just cause the customer to not return to you or that whole store/counter for that matter. Why ruin your customer relations just to increase a sale. 

I hate the whole MAC foundation line because they dont cater to someone of my own skin tone. I have had many MAC MAs put that crap on my face and seeing that it was 3 shades lighter than me, try to convince me that it was perfect. Ugh! I believe in many of the other products but as a consumer and as a beginning artist I know better than to buy everything just because someone told me so.


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## slipnslide (Mar 27, 2009)

^^ Ha! I worked under the Claire's umbrella at Mr. Rags, and they did the same thing to us. They were so sales-driven they lost sight of what in the world it was that they were selling, changed their demographics way too often, (one period it would be raver-oriented, then skater like Billabong, and the next urban like FUBU) and wound up with no customers! All of us could have told them what they were doing wrong.


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## paperfishies (Apr 1, 2009)

I'm a freelance artist, not for MAC, though.  However I do use mostly MAC on my clients and on myself.  I've noticed the opposite about the studio fix thing.  I use studio fix foundation and set with studio fix powder...Sometimes I have to, if I'm having a bad skin day, this coverage works best for me...To finish it off I spray some fix+ on a stippling brush and stipple it over my face...Works out great for me and my clients, especially those doing photoshoots.  However, EVERY damn time I go to a MAC store and buy Studio fix powder and foundation at the same time, I get the same freaking speech about how you aren't supposed to use both products together.  One MAC artist got in a damn argument with me about it and it ended with me telling her I know what's best for my skin and she should be more concerned with her own because she has a huge makeup line and her face and neck are two totally different shades.


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## Efionawade (Apr 19, 2009)

Honestly, all I see is jealousy! The makeup industry is a competitive world! If you can't win, either keep trying or drop out! What's wrong with MAC artists working runways and stuff for little to nothing? If they want to do it, they are going to do it. If they didn't want to, they wouldn't!


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## Mabelle (Apr 19, 2009)

This is the way it is in EVERY industry. Giant coporations making it harder for the little guy. 
Chapters vs a local bookstore
Starbucks vs the local cafe
Gap vs a family run store

Mac is the big guy and the independent MUA is the little guy. 
That's reality. They can bitch and whine all they please, but that's life. It's not like MAC is the only company doing this.


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## BrushStroke (May 9, 2009)

Well I've never done fashion week and haven't the desire to do so. I hear it's very stressful and know many who have gone through the grueling certification to be able to do so. MAC does not just send anyone to do these shows as they need to execute superior skills out of the gate in very fast times. I can't really comment on other issues between MAC and MUA's involving these shows as I've never participated.

What I can say is this....I have an extensive art background and have always considered myself a good makeup artist. MAC has given me the insight and the training to be really very good at what I do. Taught me the talents I needed to create beautiful dimensional art, correction and rebalancing of facial features and execution of diverse application and placement techniques. The skills I have developed have allowed me to charge rates which rival that of attorneys and then some per hour. So any freelancer can do the same. The rate you charge is determined by the talent you've acquired. I happen to be a type A personality and strive for as close to perfection as I can get. 

As far as the comments about Studio Fix powder....It really isn't meant to be used all day long to touch up with. I do however, use it to finish off certain clients (even after using a liquid foundation) to offer a little more coverage and always applied with a brush (not the enclosed sponge). I believe that if one practices good skin care and keeps the skin balanced, your makeup should last throughout the day without the necessity to touch up. I have oily skin and keep it well moisturized to inhibit excess oil production. My makeup goes on early in the day and lasts. I do not carry makeup with me other than lipstick and do not touch up either. I must say it's wonderful to do it right the first time and not be a slave to a mirror.


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## ChrisMakeupMan (Jun 11, 2009)

wow I havent been back here in ages. 

Interesting to see what everyone thinks about this. 

I am a professional MUA working in NY. I will say this It's been over 6 years since I picked up a MAC product, or anything estee lauder, and I havent missed it. I'm not whining or complaining. Makeup is subjective, and up to the individual user. 

I know what works for me and what doesnt.  MAC does not work for me there for I do not use it plain and simple. 

But you have to admit ther are  some benfits to this movement. MAC employees dont have to make and AUS or IPT goal anymore, last I checked. Thanks to this movment making that rediculousness public. 

To see a products worth just check the ingredients, there are so many fillers and parabens in most of mac foundations which is what causes irritation on most skins. and has been everyones complaint with them. again this is subjective and you can use whatever you like. I would check out www.cosmeticsdatabase.com and look up MAC , you will be very surprised. 
http://www.cosmeticsdatabase.com/brand.php?brand_id=322

To most of you that say well thats the way big business works. It works because you feed into it. they got you ,excuse my french, by the [email protected], coming out with "new" limited edition products sending everyone rushing to get the latest and newest thing. It's clever marketing. Pro artists need brands to be reliable, to have the product they want everytime they come back. which is why to me MAC is no longer a pro brand its a consumer brand with the illusion of being pro. Of course this is my opinion and we are all entitled to our opinions otherwise public forums wouldnt exist! 

So if we stopped feeding into the big businesses well they wouldn't be big anymore would they? 

OUr industry is competative enough as it is, how are we to compete with a big corporation as well, when they really have no need to. 

Believe what you want. Use what you want. I'm posting just to make you think about it. 

Thanks for listening


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## ms.marymac (Jun 12, 2009)

^^Very well said.  They brought back the AUS expectation, though.


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## ChrisMakeupMan (Jun 12, 2009)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *ms.marymac* 

 
_^^Very well said.  They brought back the AUS expectation, though.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 
Did they? well that sucks ... i had a feeling that wouldn't last to long. They need something to hold over their employee's heads. are brands under the Estee lauder umbrella the only ones with these goals? I've freelanced for a number of different lines and none had AUS/IPT just a sales goal.


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## Leven (Jun 12, 2009)

I have to agree with what ChrisMakeupMan said above, i dont think that MAC is a very pro oriented product. 

Tha being said i have seen pros such as Pat Mcgrath use a few of their products (mainly pigments/glitters) as evidenced here: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Im not trying to say that MAC is the only things professionals use. But its not a brand that they seem to completely dismiss. I dont believe they use MAC as much as MAC would want people to believe they do. You can see other brands such as MUFE and Il Makiage on the table as well.


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## ms.marymac (Jun 13, 2009)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *ChrisMakeupMan* 

 
_Did they? well that sucks ... i had a feeling that wouldn't last to long. They need something to hold over their employee's heads. are brands under the Estee lauder umbrella the only ones with these goals? I've freelanced for a number of different lines and none had AUS/IPT just a sales goal._

 
I think other Lauder brands such as Clinique have at least an IPT goal, but I am not sure. I have a few friends that work for non Lauder brands and they only have sales goals.


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## boudoirblonde (Jun 13, 2009)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *ChrisMakeupMan* 

 
_Did they? well that sucks ... i had a feeling that wouldn't last to long. They need something to hold over their employee's heads. *are brands under the Estee lauder umbrella the only ones with these goals? *I've freelanced for a number of different lines and none had *AUS/IPT just a sales goal*._

 
If AUS=Average unit per sale, then yes other brands do have them.
I (used to) work for Dior, our AUS target was 1.91


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## User27 (Jun 15, 2009)

Only a consumer but I've had too many products shoved on me by girls working counters. I love that they push any product despite it not looking good on me as a "this would work so well with your skin tone" or this "would stand out so well". The worst colors imaginable for me that I would never be able to pull off. I love people who tell me "no, that is way too bright of a blush for you" or this "isn't the right product" instead of worrying about a sale. Just my two sense, I understand quotas but wouldn't it be better to have a return customer over a feeling of me being deceived to sell a product and realize it when I get home? 

I have noticed a big change since Estee Lauder took over...like I never know the people at the counters any more and I get bombarded with product offers that would not work with me at all. If I choose the products out that make me look like $hit than that's my own fault but don't aid the cause by telling me I can pull off a color I can't. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. It's terrible but I love the people at my CCO because they'll be there 6 months later and have less of a sales pitch attitude...place makes more money off me now because of that too. I'm not saying every counter person is like this but the past couple of years has gone downhill...makes me wish we had an II3rinII or a Bunnyx3 here but we can't always get what we want. Sorry but I saw what the girl posted above about straight from the trainers' mouth and I believe her fully...it's better to make the sale with a white lie than have no sale at all. 

Sad but I've stood by MAC to the point I know no other brand really; there's loyalty for you. OT If someone knows a good foundation, let me know because I've been using theirs for ages despite the ordeal that is me fighting dry skin around my nose and cheek area...would greatly appreciate it.


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## nliedel (Jan 23, 2010)

Despite the controversy, and yes, MAC is pushing out freelancers in certain cities, I'm using some of the products in my kit. Why? Some I like and some my brides expect. I'm not a fan of their new marketing techniques, but it's pretty much all after the EL takover and I refuse to see it as part of that brand. I will buy MAC, but not EL, since they are the ones who made the crap-tastic changes.


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## Nej (Jul 19, 2010)

Hmm, very interesting issue. I think the issue here is that some of their business practices have changed and are now going against some of the guiding principles that the company started with. I'm not going to boycott them as I love some of their products and if I boycotted every company that used some unethical business practices then I'd be living in the woods using rose petals to stain my lips.

Maybe it's the MAC stores in my area but I completely agree with their assessment of the type of people MAC hires. They seem to either fall into 2 categories, extrememlly beautiful people who are good at doing their own make-up or those that apply it garishly in a way that's not fit for day-to-day wear. Either way I see MAC employees more as product experts and not as true make-up artist. They always kind of sigh and seem annoyed when I ask for their opinion on what colour etc. would work for me .. shouldn't a true artist be able to do that? Isn't that part of a MUA's training? 

I'm not saying that there aren't MAC MUA's who are true artists I'm just saying that from MY experience those aren't the type of people they hire. 

I truly sympathize with true MUA's who are unable to compete and feel that substandard people are taking their jobs. Especially when it's being done in a shady and underhanded manner. Unfortunately that's life when it comes to big business and I applaud them for standing their ground.


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## LC (Jul 19, 2010)

This topic is weird to me. I've both worked for them before, and I currently work for myself as a full time makeup artist, and I've never felt like they take away jobs in the industry...ever. Estee Lauder took over the financial aspect of MAC, they have no say in their products and ways. If they did, their stuff would be crappy just like estee lauder, clinique, etc...


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## ChrisMakeupMan (Jul 25, 2010)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *LC* 

 
_This topic is weird to me. I've both worked for them before, and I currently work for myself as a full time makeup artist, and I've never felt like they take away jobs in the industry...ever. Estee Lauder took over the financial aspect of MAC, they have no say in their products and ways. If they did, their stuff would be crappy just like estee lauder, clinique, etc..._

 





If you think Estee Lauder has no say in their products you are 100% wrong. 
that is the problem with Estee lauder buying out cosmetic companies. This all started because of the EL buyout. they changed the product watered it down. and made it what it is today. A watered down consumer driven version of the original. Which is now in the same category as yes the cliniques and estee lauder brands. Now they bought smashbox expect the same thing to happen to them.


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## em2chick (Aug 14, 2010)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *User27* 

 
_Only a consumer but I've had too many products shoved on me by girls working counters. I love that they push any product despite it not looking good on me as a "this would work so well with your skin tone" or this "would stand out so well". The worst colors imaginable for me that I would never be able to pull off. I love people who tell me "no, that is way too bright of a blush for you" or this "isn't the right product" instead of worrying about a sale._

 
This is the main reason why I always take my sister to the counter with me for a second opinion when I shop for makeup. Yes, there have been times when I reached for that nude lipstick that "they thought" would look good on me , when in actuality made me look like death. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 And I feel you on the loud colored blushes. No one wants to walk around looking like Mimi from the Drew Carey show do they? lolool


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## LC (Nov 24, 2010)

oy...


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## EUSHANNASIA (Dec 13, 2010)

Jude said:


> Sorry for the ramble... lol.


 
  	i think you said it best.  i agree completely.


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## LILYisatig3r (Jan 19, 2011)

Nej said:


> I truly sympathize with true MUA's who are unable to compete and feel that substandard people are taking their jobs. Especially when it's being done in a shady and underhanded manner. Unfortunately that's life when it comes to big business and I applaud them for standing their ground.


	SO true. I've gone and had makeovers and felt gorgeous because of the way it complements my face. But at the same time, I've gone and had makeovers done where it didn't look good. At all. I actually had a friend I knew that worked at the local MAC counter do my makeup once and told her I wanted a smokey eye look that would fit my face. I'm Asian so my eyes make it a little hard to work with, she made me look like I got punched in the face ._. All I saw was black and it was way too close to my inner corner, it just made my eyes look ridiculously small. But then I went for another makeover with a new promotion they had, and the MA this time around that I didn't know, did my makeup gorgeous! I asked for the same look and she made it almost soft, but still sexy. It really depends because they do hire across the entire range and it's hit or miss. Some of them really know what they're talking about when you ask for advice, others don't know a darned thing. But that happens with everyone in every kind of industry I think.

  	I think the people who said all the harsh things at this site are being a bit dramatic. Every company is going to have haters. No matter what they do. I use MAC because it's the only brand that's actually worked for my face. I have really oily, picky skin and usually makeup just slides right off. But MAC is the one brand I can go to for continual use and dependency. As ChrisMakeupMan said, it's always up to the individual artist. I'm not a professional, I'm a normal consumer. So perhaps that's why I like it so much, who knows?


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