# Women from Polygamist sect



## MAKExMExUP (Apr 16, 2008)

This morning on the "Today" show, I watched the interview of three women from the Polygamist sect that was raided last week in Texas. Aside from this being an EXTREMELY serious issue (they did not give very good 'arguments' on the show imo) .....I just... can't.... believe.... their OUTFITS! I mean it is straight from "Little House On The Prairie"! And their HAIR... OMG!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I am not putting them down or trying to be a shallow bia but I am just so shocked to see people who look like this in modern day America. I know about the Amish and all but I think this is different.... CUHRAZY!!!

<img src="http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.tmz.com/media/2008/04/0418_polygamy_2.jpg">


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## Brittni (Apr 16, 2008)




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## V15U4L_3RR0R (Apr 16, 2008)

Christ they look like they're stuck in the 50's or something.


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## purrtykitty (Apr 16, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *V15U4L_3RR0R* 

 
_Christ they look like they're stuck in the 50's or something._

 
Maybe the 1850s.  The whole lot of them are all sorts of delusional.


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## *Stargazer* (Apr 16, 2008)

What better way, short of making them wear a burka, is there of removing any outstanding feminine traits? All they are to the males is brood mares. Wouldn't want any of them making anything of their looks. Who knows where that might lead?

Controlling the sexuality of a woman is an age old trick practiced by men who can only elevate themselves on the degradation of someone else.


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## purrtykitty (Apr 16, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by **Stargazer** 

 
_Controlling the sexuality of a woman is an age old trick practiced by men who can only elevate themselves on the degradation of someone else._

 
Which is all the more evidenced by the fact that the women are blaming the State for all that's transpired since the raid.  Yeah...it's the State's fault that the men in your sect forced young girls into marriage and convinced everyone else in the sect that it was OK.  Just because it's done under the auspices of religion does not mean that the govn't isn't going to intervene.


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## babiid0llox (Apr 16, 2008)

I know this isn't very constructive but one of them has a monobrow.


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## *Stargazer* (Apr 16, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *babiid0llox* 

 
_I know this isn't very constructive but one of them has a monobrow._

 
A TON of them did. I thought it was also very telling that you couldn't tell if some of them were 30 or 50. 

OT - but people think that 75-80 percent of the members of this group are descended from one (or both) of TWO men (born in the late 19th century). How jacked up is that? They have the world's HIGHEST rate of fumarase deficiency (a genetic disorder that causes severe mental retardation). I can't imagine what other disorders they have.


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## tiramisu (Apr 16, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *babiid0llox* 

 
_I know this isn't very constructive but one of them has a monobrow._

 




I totally missed that unibrow, I was too busy agreeing with the 1850's comment.  This is so sad, over and above the incredible fashion issues and horribly-in-need-of-a-makeover-now problem...yikes.


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## babiid0llox (Apr 16, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by **Stargazer** 

 
_A TON of them did. I thought it was also very telling that you couldn't tell if some of them were 30 or 50. 

OT - but people think that 75-80 percent of the members of this group are descended from one (or both) of TWO men (born in the late 19th century). How jacked up is that? They have the world's HIGHEST rate of fumarase deficiency (a genetic disorder that causes severe mental retardation). I can't imagine what other disorders they have._

 

Are you serious? Do they get any helps eg. counselling or medication for their disorder (if they need it I mean) or are they expected to stay like that.

I don't mean to be mean but there isn't any nicer way to ask that or put it.


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## mreichert (Apr 16, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *MAKExMExUP* 

 
_This morning on the "Today" show, I watched the interview of three women from the Polygamist sect that was raided last week in Texas. Aside from this being an EXTREMELY serious issue (they did not give very good 'arguments' on the show imo) .....I just... can't.... believe.... their OUTFITS! I mean it is straight from "Little House On The Prairie"! And their HAIR... OMG!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am not putting them down or trying to be a shallow bia but I am just so shocked to see people who look like this in modern day America. I know about the Amish and all but I think this is different.... CUHRAZY!!!

<img src="http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.tmz.com/media/2008/04/0418_polygamy_2.jpg">_

 
I was thinking the exact same thing when I saw it! I just don't understand how a group of people can be so secluded that they live like that?? It's so sad- it's almost like they live like that because they don't know any different? If they only got in the "real world", they would see how messed up it all is


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## Shimmer (Apr 16, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *babiid0llox* 

 
_Are you serious? Do they get any helps eg. counselling or medication for their disorder (if they need it I mean) or are they expected to stay like that.

I don't mean to be mean but there isn't any nicer way to ask that or put it._

 
No, they really don't. 

Y'all have to understand, these women and children have been so removed from modern society, it's incomprehensible to people like us.


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## MAKExMExUP (Apr 16, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *babiid0llox* 

 
_I know this isn't very constructive but one of them has a monobrow._

 
LOLOLOL ::ashamed:: oh my gosh! I can just see this on a "What Not To Wear" skit on Saturday Night Live.


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## gracetre123 (Apr 16, 2008)

they look like this womens on Big love serie...I think that the name...


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## Shimmer (Apr 16, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *gracetre123* 

 
_they look like this womens on Big love serie...I think that the name..._

 
Probably because they're both groups of mormon women living polygamist lifestyles?


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## gracetre123 (Apr 16, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Probably because they're both groups of mormon women living polygamist lifestyles? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

THANK YOU... my english sucks!! but that was the point!!


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## CantAffordMAC (Apr 16, 2008)

wow. those women dont even look real...

It looks like pictures in my old social studies textbooks lol


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## shadowaddict (Apr 17, 2008)

This such a sad situation. I started researching this group several years ago and then I visited Colorado City, AZ about four years ago. That is where this sect moved from. Warren Jeffs, their prophet who is now in jail started buying up land in TX in 2002 where he was planning to move the group. He was getting paranoid because a few people had managed to escape and he was afraid of being investigated. Most of these people were born into this lifestyle and it is all they know. The way of dress is about being pure and that the ways of the outside world are evil and everything about it. At one time some did have TV's and radios but that was absolutely forbidden several years ago. They have no concept of what life is like outside their compound. None of the houses there were finished as they were continually being enlarged to occupy their growing families. Boys and girls are not allowed to socialize with each other in any way. Pre-teens and teens have been beaten for talking with someone of the opposite sex. The girls are not educated past 8th grade and even then their “education” has been in their church's private school, where the girls are taught to cook, clean and take care of children. The girls are then married off as early as 12 or 13 to older men, generally when a girl turns 14 her father goes to the prophet who then chooses a husband for her, many times that being the girls's own uncles, grandfathers, half brothers or other relatives. Having more wives will, according to their religion give him a higher place in heaven. He then can become a god and rule his own planet. This part is also the belief of mainstream Mormons. When I was there it was quite literally out in the middle of nowhere. The entire town is FLDS and as a stranger driving through we were glared at and the females hang their heads down and started disappearing into their houses. We stopped at a few places like a gas station and a couple of markets and it was just the weirdest thing. You could literally feel the secrets around you and it was made clear you were not wanted there. The local police are also members so there is no way out. A year or two ago Dr. Phil did a special about two teen girls that had escaped and then a few months ago he did an update. These girls have had a horrible time trying to adjust on the outside. These people truly believe their very salvation is at risk if they even think of leaving. 

Sorry for this being so long but there really is no way to put all the info about these people in this post. I too found it unbelievable and I have found all the reading and research to be very interesting, although some may think that’s kind of weird. If anyone is interested there are a number of good books about this and can be purchased at Amazon.com or you may  find some in your library. Here are a few:

Escape by Carolyn Jessop
Colorado City Polygamists: An Inside Look for the Outsider by Benjamin G. Bistline
Shattered Dreams: My Life as a Polygamist's Wife by Irene Spencer
God's Brothel: The Extortion of Sex for Salvation in Contemporary Mormon and Christian Fundamentalist Polygamy by Andrea Moore-Emmett
The Polygamists: A History of Colorado City, Arizona by Benjamin G. Bistline


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## MAKExMExUP (Apr 17, 2008)

So we know that the women there marry very young... but what about the young men? Because the older men have multiple wives, there becomes a "shortage" of females. Thus young boys born into the community are 'kicked out' and forced to fend for themselves so that there are more women to go around for the older dudes. Insane.


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## MAKExMExUP (Apr 17, 2008)

Not surprising, during their interview the women seemed so softspoken and meek. It's SO weird hearing them talk about their childREN when they themselves look no older than 15.


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## MAKExMExUP (Apr 17, 2008)

oopsie, I was referring to this quote

 Quote:

   Originally Posted by *shadowaddict* 

 
_the females hang their heads down and started disappearing into their houses._


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## macchristyy (Apr 17, 2008)

i was just watching this on E! like 2 hours ago


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## shadowaddict (Apr 17, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *MAKExMExUP* 

 
_So we know that the women there marry very young... but what about the young men? Because the older men have multiple wives, there becomes a "shortage" of females. Thus young boys born into the community are 'kicked out' and forced to fend for themselves so that there are more women to go around for the older dudes. Insane._

 
Yeah, a lot of young boys are sent away on "missions" which are usually to work at one of the businesses the “church” owns. The church or prophet if you will has tons of money and property where as the other families generally do not much at all, sometimes having just bread or a little rice to eat. All money goes to the United Effort Plan, which the prophet has control over. Sometimes they are taken and just dropped off somewhere to fend for themselves. Some of the boys are of the “Lost Boys” a group to help boys like this adjust so they can live in the outside world. In one book I read they were referred to as “Poofers” because one day they would be there and the next day they weren’t. I have also read this term is used for young girls also when they are secretly married off and sent away. Usually the girl does not know that she is getting married until at the most a couple of days before she is to wed and sometimes only a couple of hours. Then she is not left alone until after the ceremony so she will not try to escape. This particular sect has a place in Canada also. And sometimes men will have wives scattered about different little towns.

 The first wife is a legal wife but the others are spiritual wives and the ceremonies are generally kept quite. All married women are expected to have a baby a year. This increases their numbers (but as they believe give bodies to the spirit children in heaven waiting for Earthly bodies to occupy, this is also a belief of mainstream Mormons) The wives after the first since they are not legally married can then can collect welfare and food stamps and all other benefits because they are legally single moms. Due to the incest there are a number of birth defects among the children and these are thought of as “blessings” because the mother can get more money from the government. Of course she does not get to keep any of the money and many times the children go without in terms of food and clothing.


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## blindpassion (Apr 17, 2008)

They pretty much brainwash those women, and its so sad and sick to see. They don't know any other life but being part of that clan, they think that this is how god intended everyones lives to be, theyve completely brought them up brainwashed, I feel so sorry for them... they think we are in the wrong for taking their kids away, they dont see that its our only option left, they are polluting the minds of those young children... so sad


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## shadowaddict (Apr 17, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *blindpassion* 

 
_They pretty much brainwash those women, and its so sad and sick to see. They don't know any other life but being part of that clan, they think that this is how god intended everyones lives to be, theyve completely brought them up brainwashed, I feel so sorry for them... they think we are in the wrong for taking their kids away, they dont see that its our only option left, they are polluting the minds of those young children... so sad 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 
You are so right with that. They are making a public outcry in hopes of repeating history. The state of Utah raided them in the 50's (at that time it was called Short Creek, as the two towns of Colorado City, AZ and Hilldale, UT are on the borders) and arrested most of the men and took away the women and children. When the rest of the country heard about it as it was reported how the state came and ambushed them and just yanked these families apart the country went nuts. Everyone freaked and thought the state of Utah was way out of line. So pretty much everything returned as usual. Since then the state has turned a blind eye to what has been going on there and they have known about it. It has gone as far as involving the governor in the past. In the past few years things have started to leak out about them and Utah has wanted to appear to be taking action. I just hope these women and children will get some help. There is a group called Tapestry Against Polygamy. You can read more here:

Tapestry against Polygamy: Creating a choice and a voice through education and support


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## aeni (Apr 17, 2008)

Which reminds me - when'll Big Love start up again?


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## makeup_wh0re (Apr 17, 2008)

some of these women look like guys.


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## panda0410 (Apr 17, 2008)

I think the whole thing is f***ing revoulting..... The fact that some of these young girls first introduction to a "happy" marriage will be rape makes me sick.. The fact that they then allow their own daughters to go through the same thing makes me even sicker. These men are nothing better than paedophiles IMHO - they all need to be shot.


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## purrtykitty (Apr 17, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *panda0410* 

 
_I think the whole thing is f***ing revoulting..... The fact that some of these young girls first introduction to a "happy" marriage will be rape makes me sick.. The fact that they then allow their own daughters to go through the same thing makes me even sicker. These men are nothing better than paedophiles IMHO - they all need to be shot._

 
It is soooo sick...and sad.  These women think the State is the enemy - not those sickos that are raping their young daughters on a nightly basis all because the Prophet says it's "OK".


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## Shimmer (Apr 17, 2008)

By sitting here making fun of them and slamming their appearance, way of life (not including the polygamist and rape/statutory rape parts...just the 'backwards' way of living), etc. we're perpetuating what their 'husbands' told them would happen.  Part of the control these men had was telling these women they wouldn't be accepted in the outside world. 

Lo and behold.






My brother and his wife live in the town this stuff is happening in, it's not funny, worth poking jokes at, or anything like that. It's sad, it's overwhelming, it's pathetic, and in many cases it's heartbreaking.


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## purrtykitty (Apr 17, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_By sitting here making fun of them and slamming their appearance, way of life (not including the polygamist and rape/statutory rape parts...just the 'backwards' way of living), etc. we're perpetuating what their 'husbands' told them would happen. Part of the control these men had was telling these women they wouldn't be accepted in the outside world. 

Lo and behold.






My brother and his wife live in the town this stuff is happening in, it's not funny, worth poking jokes at, or anything like that. It's sad, it's overwhelming, it's pathetic, and in many cases it's heartbreaking._

 
It is very sad, indeed.  It seems to be our culture to make fun of and degrade that which is "different" in our eyes and what we don't understand.  And that doesn't make it right...just an observation.


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## Simply Elegant (Apr 17, 2008)

They probably think that this is normal. Imagine yourself being born into this type of society I guess? If everyone told you this was normal and everyone did it from a young age then it would be a lot easier to believe. I don't agree with any of it though. I think it's disgusting. If they just lived a different type of life that people wouldn't consider morally wrong and was simply just different from average, then I would be open minded and wouldn't care and if the girls had a choice in the way that they lived it wouldn't be as bad if it was ethical, but it's not that way at all.


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## MAC_Whore (Apr 17, 2008)

Aside from the obvious sad aspects of this, another appalling issue is the media.  

The media is interviewing these women who are absolutley torn apart by loosing their kids.  They are just stirring these women up.  The reality is that these women have been taught to be victims all their life and the media is totally playing into it for "good" TV.

Another thing I noticed is their puffy hairdos.  They really are a sad statement.  They are the only way these ladies can express themselves through their own bodies.


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## shadowaddict (Apr 18, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *MAC_Whore* 

 
_Aside from the obvious sad aspects of this, another appalling issue is the media.  

The media is interviewing these women who are absolutley torn apart by loosing their kids.  They are just stirring these women up.  The reality is that these women have been taught to be victims all their life and the media is totally playing into it for "good" TV.

Another thing I noticed is their puffy hairdos.  They really are a sad statement.  They are the only way these ladies can express themselves through their own bodies._

 
The puffy hairdo thing is that they believe pretty much the higher the better. It is their belief that it is like reaching up to heaven, almost like a show of respect upwards to heaven. So they try to get it as tall as they can on top. 

There are polygamist groups scattered about the US and Canada and used to in Mexico. Some are christian, others off shoots like this one of mormonism and not sure of the others. But it would be one thing if the women chose this lifestyle but in this group and many like it they do not. They are held like slaves and threatened. They are scared for their children and themselves. They are afraid to speak out because they know what will happen to them or their kids if they get sent back.  They honestly believe this is the only way to heaven. They have been taught they are God's chosen people and they are being tested.

It is so heart breaking. I just hope that now that it has been brought out in the public that their wish of an angry public comes true but not for what the leaders want in returning everyone and leaving them alone but for the authorities to realize this is a cult and these people have been brainwashed from birth. A few women in the past have said that in church you will not even hear a baby cry because as babies the fathers will hit the baby until it cries and then hold them under water until it stops crying. This is repeated until the baby does not cry anymore. And during family prayer meetings that will sometimes last hours even the smallest of children are awaken in the middle of the night when "Father" (the man and is called this by wives as well) decides he is going to hold a prayer session. Everyone is expected to sit a certain way and not move or make a sound until he says it is over. Children as well as wives are often beaten for “disrupting” the meeting. These women and children need compassion and help. They know of no other way to live and they are taught not to trust "outsiders" because we are all evil and of the Devil.


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## prettysecrets (Apr 18, 2008)

They are so brain washed its scary.......


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## athena123 (Apr 18, 2008)

I don't have it in me to make fun of their dresses, lack of makeup or unibrow, I just don't. These women are truly victims, but unlike many victims in today's world, they don't even KNOW they're victims because they've been raised in an extremely secluded and insular society for generations. They dress the way they dress because that's the way it's always been. There is no TV, fashion magazines or any outside sources coming into their homes from our "gentile" world. 

For those who are putting them down for their appearance when they don't know any other way, how about showing some compassion for these women and the children they bear? I was raised around mormon beliefs. I'm very glad it never took. I realize these sects are an extreme mormon sect, but the fundamental beliefs between the LDS and the FLDS are still the same. They're both highly patriarchal theologies put in place by MEN to keep WOMEN in their place.


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## athena123 (Apr 18, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *babiid0llox* 

 
_I know this isn't very constructive but one of them has a monobrow._

 




No, it's neither constructive nor relevant to this horrible situation. But you are entitled to your opinion, I'm just sorry I have to disagree with this statement so strongly.  These sects abuse religious freedom at the expense of these women's lives, and their children and the children after that.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




It's ironic that these sects are so anti-government and anti-tax, yet they have no qualms about taking food stamps and welfare for these illegitimate children.


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## Shimmer (Apr 18, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *athena123* 

 
_I don't have it in me to make fun of their dresses, lack of makeup or unibrow, I just don't. These women are truly victims, but unlike many victims in today's world, they don't even KNOW they're victims because they've been raised in an extremely secluded and insular society for generations. They dress the way they dress because that's the way it's always been. There is no TV, fashion magazines or any outside sources coming into their homes from our "gentile" world. 

For those who are putting them down for their appearance when they don't know any other way, how about showing some compassion for these women and the children they bear? I was raised around mormon beliefs. I'm very glad it never took. I realize these sects are an extreme mormon sect, but the fundamental beliefs between the LDS and the FLDS are still the same. They're both highly patriarchal theologies put in place by MEN to keep WOMEN in their place._

 
You mean like a woman can't get to heaven unless her husband calls her thru the veil?
Like how the husband is the 'priest' of the family, and the wife must submit?
How the women are expected to have 6+ children or be considered a 'bad mormon'?
How the females are expected to submit, defer, and obey _everything_ the husband commands?

Things like  that?

Mormonism burns my ass as much as islam does because the entire foundation of the religion is based on keeping women held prisoner physically, emotionally, and spiritually.


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## athena123 (Apr 18, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_You mean like a woman can't get to heaven unless her husband calls her thru the veil?
Like how the husband is the 'priest' of the family, and the wife must submit?
How the women are expected to have 6+ children or be considered a 'bad mormon'?
How the females are expected to submit, defer, and obey everything the husband commands?

Things like  that?

Mormonism burns my ass as much as islam does because the entire foundation of the religion is based on keeping women held prisoner physically, emotionally, and spiritually._

 
Yes, that's exactly what I mean. It's a pretty severe theology and women are really treated like second class citizens. How does a woman get to heaven if her husband dies? Oh, she's supposed to become someone else's second, third, or twentieth freakin' wife because god doesn't talk to women, apparently. 

And women in the high places of mormon church? Fugheddabout it, it doesn't happen and just like the catholic church, it won't. 

When I was a little girl, I used to attend classes at the mormon church on Wednesday afternoons after school.  I call it the "early indoctrination" program, they called it primary school. I must have driven my teacher nuts with all my questions and I was only 10 years old. Come to think of it, I can STILL drive a teacher nuts with questions! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Little me raised my hand - why do men get to have so many wives? 
teacher: because the book says so. 
Little me: why don't women have many husbands? 
teacher: because the book says so.
Little me. what happens if the daddy dies, what happens to the woman then? 
teacher: your mom will find a new husband so she can go to heaven.
Little me: my dad died 2 years ago and she hasn't found a husband yet, does that mean she'll go to hell? 
teacher: unless she finds a husband to call her to heaven, it's possible. 
Little me: why won't god call her himself, why does the husband have to? 
teacher: because the book says so. 

By the time I was 11 years old I pretty much decided it was all bullshit. My mind hasn't changed.


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## MAC_Whore (Apr 18, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_.....Mormonism burns my ass as much as islam does because the entire foundation of the religion is based on keeping women held prisoner physically, emotionally, and spiritually._

 
Incoming pissed-off comments in, wait....wait for it.....3...2...1... (you know they're coming, right?)


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## V15U4L_3RR0R (Apr 18, 2008)

Ok moment of silliness aside, I do think it is sad. Being brainwashed like that for generations is a crazy thing as is the abuse that stems from it. I have no problem with Polygamy in the slightest though. It's a brainwashing, the rape and the incest that bothers me.

I have nothing particularly against Mormons. I'm sure most of them are very nice people and would give you their last buck to help you.  I have nothing against Islam either since it was mentioned. They do what's right by them in their society which happens to be different from ours. Doesn't make it right or wrong to me.

(For the record, the above is not a pissed off statement, just my emotionless opinion and nothing more)


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## Shimmer (Apr 18, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *MAC_Whore* 

 
_Incoming pissed-off comments in, wait....wait for it.....3...2...1... (you know they're coming, right?)_

 
I'd say I apologized that my view is offensive, but I would be lying.  There's nothing empowering about defeminization and desexualization of women, in any religion.
And, if it's done for the women's protection, as the male (and many female) segment would claim, then really...shouldn't the focus be on the males who aren't strong enough to ignore their little head when it says 'hey pounce on her because she showed her ankle'?   really, who's the weaker gender in that siuation?


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## athena123 (Apr 18, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *V15U4L_3RR0R* 

 
_
I have nothing particularly against Mormons. I'm sure most of them are very nice people and would give you their last buck to help you.  I have nothing against Islam either since it was mentioned. They do what's right by them in their society which happens to be different from ours. Doesn't make it right or wrong to me.

(For the record, the above is not a pissed off statement, just my emotionless opinion and nothing more)_

 
Visual, I'm not taking this as a pissed off statement at all. I don't have anything against the people; I've known some very kind practitioners of islam and mormons. It's their _religion_ I have a very, very, very, hard time with. 

Any religion that seeks to restrict women from direct revelation with their god or sticks women in a submissive role because of the whole adam and eve thing simply isn't worthy of me. As a whole, women really get a bad rap from many religions; islam and mormonism in particular. We're held to blame for men's inability to control their wicks.


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## V15U4L_3RR0R (Apr 18, 2008)

I don't particularly disagree with you. Middle Eastern society is very different from ours is my point and I don't think it's right to judge a society by your own standards even though it's a perfectly natural and instinctive thing to do.  They do what's right by them.

(And yes I realise how my argument can be turned against me but it doesn't change my opinion)

However back on the topic, I do feel sad for these women and I've been hearing a lot of people calling these women stupid and ugly etc etc which does piss me off because these women aren't stupid.


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## MAC_Whore (Apr 18, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_I'd say I apologized that my view is offensive, but I would be lying.  There's nothing empowering about defeminization and desexualization of women, in any religion.
And, if it's done for the women's protection, as the male (and many female) segment would claim, then really...shouldn't the focus be on the males who aren't strong enough to ignore their little head when it says 'hey pounce on her because she showed her ankle'?   really, who's the weaker gender in that siuation?_

 
Agreed.  I was just being a wisenheimer in that your comment is bound to stir up someone.  Everyone can toss in their .02 here, pissed off or not.


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## athena123 (Apr 18, 2008)

Visual, we'll agree to disagree on the way middle eastern women are raised. I'll allow that we shouldn't judge other societies by our standards up to a certain point.  But when that line is crossed, moral relativism is merely a cop out. 

Some things are wrong, no matter where you're raised, which country you live in, when you live, how you live, what your gender/race or who you pray to. Anytime force is used to enslave another being, it's wrong.

Women are brought up to be sexual slaves and servants to men all over the world. It's a great and terrible wrong. A god may strike me down for saying this and I'll still know I'm in the right. But then perhaps I've just been "brainwashed" by the western world and the concept of free will and the inherent value we're all born with is just an illusion.


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## V15U4L_3RR0R (Apr 18, 2008)

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

The rest really depends on your Philosophical point of view and which Philosopher you agree with.


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## *Stargazer* (Apr 18, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *athena123* 

 
_Some things are wrong, no matter where you're raised, which country you live in, when you live, how you live, what your gender/race or who you pray to. _

 
I couldn't agree more. I don't for one second believe that you can excuse immoral behaviour by saying it's cultural.


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## V15U4L_3RR0R (Apr 18, 2008)

Well like I said, I guess it comes down to what you believe and that's fine by me.


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## athena123 (Apr 18, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *V15U4L_3RR0R* 

 
_Well we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

The rest really depends on your Philosophical point of view and which Philosopher you agree with._

 
True --- I really don't know whether I'm a moral relativist or an absolutist. I've yet to find any system of thought, be it philosophy or religion that truly answers all my questions. I see a lot of shades and nuances of gray; in that sense, I could be a moral relativist. 

Yet I've been able to come up with one moral absolute that can apply to all humans, no matter who/where/what/when/why/how. It's never ok to initiate force against another. The key phrase being INITIATE FORCE. Self defense is a form of force, but it's a reaction to a wrong done. Coming up with a universal principle would seem to place me in the absolutist camp. But since I do see and appreciate shades of gray, I don't think I can come down completely on the side of moral absolutism either. Many things are more than a black/white issue. 

Which makes me an moral absolutist/relativist? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I dunno, I'll have to see if I can come up with something a little more catchy.


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## V15U4L_3RR0R (Apr 18, 2008)

There's always a third option and that's a combo of the two. Can't remember what the proper name for that sort of thing is but I can always go look it up and add to this comment later when I've finished working.


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## NutMeg (Apr 18, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *athena123* 

 
_I don't have it in me to make fun of their dresses, lack of makeup or unibrow, I just don't. These women are truly victims, but unlike many victims in today's world, they don't even KNOW they're victims because they've been raised in an extremely secluded and insular society for generations. They dress the way they dress because that's the way it's always been. There is no TV, fashion magazines or any outside sources coming into their homes from our "gentile" world. 

For those who are putting them down for their appearance when they don't know any other way, how about showing some compassion for these women and the children they bear? I was raised around mormon beliefs. I'm very glad it never took. I realize these sects are an extreme mormon sect, but the fundamental beliefs between the LDS and the FLDS are still the same. They're both highly patriarchal theologies put in place by MEN to keep WOMEN in their place._

 
Thanks for being so clear about that athena. I know it had been mentioned before in the thread, but I find it so upsetting that in the face of such a serious issue some people can only find it within themselves to comment on the appearance of the women involved. I don't have a lot else to say right now (I'll probably post again later), but I'm glad someone directed the thread in a more relevant direction.


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## shadowaddict (Apr 19, 2008)

Whoever said it you are right, for the most part mormons are very family involved and very nice people. I think the problem is that there have been over 3,900 changes in the Book of Mormon since it was first published. There have been so many changes of thought and since their prophet has revelations straight from God and so therefore speaks for Him, then with each new prophet changes are made. I also for myself do not think you have to tithe at least 10% of your gross income to get to heaven or as with mormons the highest level of heaven. I honestly think that most regular mormons do not know the true doctrine of the church as it goes back to Freemasons. Joseph Smith copied much of the symbols, temple ceremonies and such straight from Freemasonry after he joined. There are also many documents that only the highest level of the church administration has seen and is locked away in a vault because they contain documentation of contradictions in what members are told. There is much hidden from the regular members. I also see the missionaries as a marketing tool to gather more members as their "lessons" change with society to be more agreeable with the general public. When Joseph Smith announced his candidacy for president of the US in 1844 (as well as Brigham Young later) he wanted Mormons to take over the country and then I guess the world.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound like I'm some kind of expert or know-it-all. I don't want to come across that way at all. This is just something I've spent a lot of time studying and reading about. I got pulled in by a boyfriend at 16 and then at 18 was baptised Mormon but I never truely believed and so when we broke up I never went back. I'm now 45 and for the last several years have taken an interest in learning about the history. I'm not sure why, maybe to figure out why I was so easily pulled into something I really didn't believe. I guess this is why I try to understand and have compassion for how and why people get sucked into cults before they even realize what is going on. But if you're born into it you don't stand much of a chance.


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## Jenna_x (Apr 19, 2008)

I read an article about this a few months back, it's so sad but good that they did a raid.


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## CantAffordMAC (Apr 19, 2008)

I want to apologize for my rude comment I made earlier...I didn't really know how deep this goes. i've been following the story on Nancy Grace for the past 2 nights and it really is sad....

It scares me. Because its like a whole different world. But yet its right here in the US. I really do apologize for making a mean comment on their appearance. Its a shame that these people cannot be helped....I can't imagine being so brainwashed. This is all they know.


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## CantAffordMAC (Apr 19, 2008)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *shadowaddict* 

 
_Sorry, I don't mean to sound like I'm some kind of expert or know-it-all. I don't want to come across that way at all. This is just something I've spent a lot of time studying and reading about. I got pulled in by a boyfriend at 16 and then at 18 was baptised Mormon but I never truely believed and so when we broke up I never went back. I'm now 45 and for the last several years have taken an interest in learning about the history. I'm not sure why, maybe to figure out why I was so easily pulled into something I really didn't believe. I guess this is why I try to understand and have compassion for how and why people get sucked into cults before they even realize what is going on. But if you're born into it you don't stand much of a chance._

 
You don't sound like a know-it-all. You're very helpful and informative. Thanks for giving us so much information to learn from...because honestly, I would have never even known.


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## lipstickandhate (Apr 19, 2008)

The exact same thing goes on throughout the Middle East, Africa, South Asia, and even in various American and Western European cities and everyone just says "Leave them alone! It's their religion, their choice and we just don't understand!" 

I'm amused that the main stream media and many individual people are not so understanding and accepting when its going on in their own back yard.


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