# Blasphemy???!!! *GASP*



## SChotgurrl (Jun 30, 2006)

Ok so I'm a member of a modeling website (it's also for photographers, stylists, and MUAs) and I've noticed a few stylists and MUAs with anti-MAC avatars??? They have the word MAC with the whole red-circle-with-a-slash thing over it...what in the name of Davey Jones' locker is this all about??? I'd rather ask you gals here b/c for one: this site is ALL ABOUT MAC 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








 and two: I enjoy reading reading all you lovelies' [non-flaming or bashing]opinions/thoughts/critiques (and posts in general!) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Could someone please clue me in on this whole "anti-MAC" bullshit? TIA 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*Runs away to cuddle and soothe "The Precious"*


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## Shimmer (Jun 30, 2006)

google "anti-mac movement" and see if you can find anything that way. :/


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## bluegrassbabe (Jun 30, 2006)

Google "em elle industry forum", there is a lot of discussion about it on that forum. Sorry I don't have a link.
The artists on this site make a lot of very valid points about Estee Lauder Companies (MAC is owned by EL) and what I would call the "wal-martization" of makeup. It's an interesting read.
Also search for KJ Bennet. There is an anti-mac blog on his site as well. 
The topic has also come up on this board a few times. Read it all over and draw your own conclusions


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## SChotgurrl (Jun 30, 2006)

Thank you ladies! I will do some searching on this


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## MacVirgin (Jun 30, 2006)

Maybe this link helps to clear the mistery for ya
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



http://specktra.net/showthread.php?t=46429

and this:
http://www.specktra.net/showthread.p...light=anti+mac


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## LisaR (Jul 3, 2006)

Here's kjbennett's blog who has offered his view and some of the history of the whole arguement. He's even got a website called "In my Kit" full of professional products used by professional MUA's - non of which are MAC - all of which are excellent products. 

http://blog.kjbennett.com/?page_id=42


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## as_cute_as_pie (Jul 4, 2006)

is it me or is this a mac face chart??

http://makeup.kjbennett.com/home.htm


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## as_cute_as_pie (Jul 4, 2006)

i think alot of people dont like mac due to the whole EL thing and the fact that collections come out every week seems like a desperate attempt. ive also read somewhere that someone worked in a counter and everyone kept going to the MAC counter instead of hers sounds like jealousy.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 oh and the whole pushing out makeup artists out of business thing

this man seems to hate everything

http://blog.kjbennett.com/?m=200512

the entry sayin the 2005 bs awards


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## LisaR (Jul 4, 2006)

*Voices of other artists*

Just playing "devil's advocate" here because someone asked about the "No MAC" sign. I only gave one example but here's a list of the opinions of many artists and their thoughts. Some pro/some con. 

My personal opinion is that most independant working MUA's use a hodgepodge of products in their kits. I know I do and so does every other MUA that I know - including MAC. 

http://p082.ezboard.com/fmakeupandre...  D=7896.topic


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## SARAHluvsMAC (Aug 5, 2006)

kevin bennett taught MAC pro classes in 2002 as well as uses a MAC face chart in the  a collage on his website...
seems pretty fishy to me that he would keep those things on his website if hes so against mac


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## MisStarrlight (Aug 5, 2006)

The MAC pushing MAs out of work is a real thing.  Take a look at this past Fashion Week if you don't believe me.  MAC took over like all the big contracts (that used to go to freelance MAs)

And MAC did all of the makeup for Pirates 2-What the eff is that all about?  They're even taking away union jobs now.  It's got a lot of people in the industry pissed.  It's not just this KJ guy calling for the boycott-the east coast union is too (I dunno about the west coast, but they probably are saying the same thing).

I don't have an opinion on it all quite yet.  I'm still too new to the industry & MAC currently still hands me a paycheck every week & completely consumes my kit so I can't (and don't) hate them in the slightest....it's definitely something I'm keeping an eye on though.


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## koolmnbv (Aug 5, 2006)

So why try to go up against such a big company? Obviously MAC is winning, and all the non-mac freelancers are pissed. So why not just try to join up with the MAC team and try to grow from there instead of rebelling and clawing and fighting against such a huge force like EL? 

I am not saying that I agree or disagree, I can see both sides because I am not a MUA and I dont have any reason to hate MAC b/c I am only a consumer. But from the MUAs side I can understand there aggrevation, but I cant see them actually beating or bringing down or even putting a dent in a company like MAC and EL but I guess they are mad and vengeful. 

I guess I just say if Ya cant beat em join em.


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## mae13 (Aug 5, 2006)

I would assume it's because most people who go into artist-type fields prefer to work for themselves, to be independent and have control over their own decisions. If you work for MAC, you go where they send you and are accountable to a bunch of people aside from yourself and the client.

And if you want to leave, you start from scratch, because the company owns all your tear sheets - you're not credited. Besides which, MAC doesn't need artists half as much as it needs salespeople. They are not a make-up artistry company, they are a company that sells make-up. They are not there to promote, support or develop the MA community's interests, but their own fiscal agenda.


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## dangerousmuffins (Aug 5, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *mae13* 
_ They are not a make-up artistry company, they are a company that sells make-up. They are not there to promote, support or develop the MA community's interests, but their own fiscal agenda._

 
I know this might not be the point you're making with this, but I find the above statement so true, and I think that sometimes people forget this!!

If I start boycotting every company that has their top priority in making money and not caring or taking care of their employees, I don't know if I'll ever buy anything again! (My BF might like that, but i don't! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )
Do I think "the not taking care of the employees" syndrome is right - NO - of course not!

My point really is that EL is just not the only company that does this.


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## giz2000 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *mae13* 
_I would assume it's because most people who go into artist-type fields prefer to work for themselves, to be independent and have control over their own decisions. If you work for MAC, you go where they send you and are accountable to a bunch of people aside from yourself and the client.

And if you want to leave, you start from scratch, because the company owns all your tear sheets - you're not credited. Besides which, MAC doesn't need artists half as much as it needs salespeople. They are not a make-up artistry company, they are a company that sells make-up. They are not there to promote, support or develop the MA community's interests, but their own fiscal agenda._

 

You hit the nail right on the head.  Here in South Florida, MAC MAs do all the major awards shows (Latin and regular Grammys, etc), fashion shows, etc.  They get regular hourly pay as if they were at their counter.  A freelance MA with a good reputation (non-MAC affiliated) could charge $500-700 per show....who do you think the show producers would rather have?  It's a no-brainer....and the bottom line is what the cosmetics business is all about.


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## Beauty Mark (Aug 6, 2006)

I can understand where they're coming from, though. Undercutting is a big deal. It lows the standard of pay, so it makes difficult for people to make a living off of their work. Also, (don't lynch me for this, because I'm not familiar with the quality before and after what's going on) quality tends to go down fast because of the lower pay. It's partially because the people who charge a lower rate aren't can't command the higher rate because of their skills.

I know it's how business is ran, but I still feel for these people, particularly if they are part of the reason MAC is such a well-known, respected brand. I guess what surprises me the most is that there's no sort of union that works against this.


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## LisaR (Aug 6, 2006)

I think it has more to do with who made MAC what it is today. It's the wonderfully talented artists that charge the big bucks because they're the ones with the experience, know-how, a vast range of product lines and they've worked hard to get where they are today as well as to help make MAC what it is today. 

IMO they're fighting as hard for the future of young artists (even those at MAC) who don't realize that they could be making way more than $14-18 per hour, who don't realize that when most of these artists leave MAC, they have nothing to show but a good reference - no tear sheets, no book or credentials, nothing - because when they go out on a job they are "so and so for MAC" and EL owns all their tear sheets. Once they leave they have to start over. Perhaps MAC sounds good now but in the long run it is not good for artists as a whole.

You're right, the cosmetics industry is about selling cosmetics and "the bottom line".  Make-up artistry is about art. Art that comes from experience, talent, color, texture, medium - It's something no cosmetics company can box and it comes at a price.

Given the choice: Kevyn Aucoin at whatever his rate was or MAC cosmetics at even $14 an hour...I'll take the beauty and experience of KA any old day.  



 Quote:

   Originally Posted by *giz2000* 
_You hit the nail right on the head.  Here in South Florida, MAC MAs do all the major awards shows (Latin and regular Grammys, etc), fashion shows, etc.  They get regular hourly pay as if they were at their counter.  A freelance MA with a good reputation (non-MAC affiliated) could charge $500-700 per show....who do you think the show producers would rather have?  It's a no-brainer....and the bottom line is what the cosmetics business is all about._


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## giz2000 (Aug 6, 2006)

Yep...the artistry aspect of the industry has taken a back seat to the financial aspect...and that's too bad.  I know a lot of extremely talented MAs (both MAC and non-MAC) who bust their butts doing outside gigs to build their professional portfolio, so when the day comes that they do leave MAC to venture out on their own, they have something to take with them.  For instance, one of my old co-workers would take afternoon shifts as often as possible, because she might have had a wedding to do in the AM, show up for work (7.5 hour shift), then leave to do a photo shoot or fashion spread in the evening...her days were 12-14 hours long (or longer) and she worked on her days off as well, but when she left MAC, she had an impressive book and is getting work in the TV and film industry on a regular basis (and I guarantee she gets paid WAY more than $18/hour).

MAC is a wonderful stepping stone to a career in makeup, but a lot of the younger MAs don't realize that there IS a world outside of our beloved MAC, and that they need to learn as much as they can in order to take their talents and make a name for themselves.  Easier said that done, but it does happen.


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## SChotgurrl (Aug 6, 2006)

Man, all these posts have been so extremely helpful!!! I'd been dying to work at MAC for the longest (along with half of America, LOL), but now I don't feel SO eager about it...I mean like giz2000 said, it's probably a great stepping stone; but I don't think I'd try to make a career out of it. It's definitely something I'd like to do "on the side" once I graduate in the Spring (2007). I'm a dance major so my FIRST priority, career wise, is to choreograph and/or teach at a dance studio. Here in SC, the dance industry is nowhere near that of LA or NYC, so jobs pay pretty well (there's a high demand for teachers/choreographers in SC and surrounding states). 

Basically my ideal plan (pre and post graduation) is to go ahead and start teaching hip-hop/jazz this Fall at a dance studio near my campus....continue doing that after graduation...and then post-grad apply for a part-time (or maybe freelance?) job at [the only] MAC counter in Columbia. I wanna wait til after I graduate so I'll have more time to work more hours in both fields. Now of course if the MAC thing doesn't work out I'd still have dance to continue and I'll probably have a back-up plan as well. I don't know, I guess I'll see how things fall together this year! Thanks for all the info. you gals really opened up my eyes to a lot of things


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## FacesbyNiki (Aug 7, 2006)

You make it work for you. That is with any company in any field. People wasting energy on this 'I hate MAC' mess, cracks me up. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




If you ain't making it work for you, be mad at yourself and not the company.


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## Beauty Mark (Aug 7, 2006)

But they are taking a more active stance than complaining about it amongst themselves. They've seemed to figure out how not to use MAC and decided not to promote it, as well as trying to get the word out. It's hard to say what'll happen, but they make a difference, they may not.

I think they have a right to be mad at the company, if they have helped build it up and promote it. They probably didn't expect MAC to come along and undercut them so badly. 

 Quote:

   Originally Posted by *FacesbyNiki* 
_You make it work for you. That is with any company in any field. People wasting energy on this 'I hate MAC' mess, cracks me up. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





If you ain't making it work for you, be mad at yourself and not the company._


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## Beautiful1 (Aug 7, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *giz2000* 
_Yep...the artistry aspect of the industry has taken a back seat to the financial aspect...and that's too bad.  I know a lot of extremely talented MAs (both MAC and non-MAC) who bust their butts doing outside gigs to build their professional portfolio, so when the day comes that they do leave MAC to venture out on their own, they have something to take with them.  For instance, one of my old co-workers would take afternoon shifts as often as possible, because she might have had a wedding to do in the AM, show up for work (7.5 hour shift), then leave to do a photo shoot or fashion spread in the evening...her days were 12-14 hours long (or longer) and she worked on her days off as well, but when she left MAC, she had an impressive book and is getting work in the TV and film industry on a regular basis (and I guarantee she gets paid WAY more than $18/hour).

MAC is a wonderful stepping stone to a career in makeup, but a lot of the younger MAs don't realize that there IS a world outside of our beloved MAC, and that they need to learn as much as they can in order to take their talents and make a name for themselves.  Easier said that done, but it does happen._

 
Amen to That! This Is Why I So Appreciate True Make~up Artists Who Are Not Shackled To MAC or Whomever.  They Are True To The Art Of Make~up.  I Thought About Working For MAC But You Know What My Creation I Need To Own It And Not Have A Company Tell Me That I Can't Lay Claim To My Own Work.  That Is Total Bull Crap.  But Hey If People Want To Work For MAC As Their Stepping Stone So Be It!  Just Make Sure You Are Creating Your Own Separate Book So That You Won't Have To Feel Like Your Stuck!


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## FacesbyNiki (Aug 7, 2006)

My thing is, when it's not your company, there is nothing you can do. I guess, I see it differently. Just seems like too much energy wasted on this. I like the company, I've worked for Clinique so I know what it's like to work for an EL company. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  <-- this little guy cracks me up. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Beauty Mark* 
_But they are taking a more active stance than complaining about it amongst themselves. They've seemed to figure out how not to use MAC and decided not to promote it, as well as trying to get the word out. It's hard to say what'll happen, but they make a difference, they may not.

I think they have a right to be mad at the company, if they have helped build it up and promote it. They probably didn't expect MAC to come along and undercut them so badly._


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## Beauty Mark (Aug 8, 2006)

I think consumers can have more power than you realize (I have nothing for or against EL, as of now.) You may not be able to control what goes behind closed doors directly, but if enough people don't buy their products (and let them know why) and it hurts their business, the company will have to do something. If MAC gets bad PR from this and hurts the business, they'll have to do something about that, as well. I don't know if MAs have that kind of power to change consumerism, but I think it's definitely within the realm of possibility.

I really don't know if it's a waste of their time, since it is their business. Small towns (very few) have been successful in blocking Wal-Mart from becoming a part of their communities or at least have been succeessful in stopping Wal-Mart from the Super, 24-hr Wal-Mart. They fear what the company will do to the small, local business and spent a lot of time at meetings and protests, as well as staying informed to stop this. To me, it's sort of the same.


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## idreamincolor (Aug 8, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *FacesbyNiki* 
_You make it work for you. That is with any company in any field. People wasting energy on this 'I hate MAC' mess, cracks me up. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




If you ain't making it work for you, be mad at yourself and not the company._

 


You are soooooooooooo right!!!!!!! 'nough said!!!!!!!!


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## FacesbyNiki (Aug 8, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Beauty Mark* 
_I think consumers can have more power than you realize (I have nothing for or against EL, as of now.) You may not be able to control what goes behind closed doors directly, but if enough people don't buy their products (and let them know why) and it hurts their business, the company will have to do something. If MAC gets bad PR from this and hurts the business, they'll have to do something about that, as well. I don't know if MAs have that kind of power to change consumerism, but I think it's definitely within the realm of possibility.

I really don't know if it's a waste of their time, since it is their business. Small towns (very few) have been successful in blocking Wal-Mart from becoming a part of their communities or at least have been succeessful in stopping Wal-Mart from the Super, 24-hr Wal-Mart. They fear what the company will do to the small, local business and spent a lot of time at meetings and protests, as well as staying informed to stop this. To me, it's sort of the same._

 
I totally understand what you are saying. I guess, I'm looking at it from someone who doesn't care. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm not passionate about trying to bring this company down or make them change their ways. I see it like this, use them, like they use you. If they get in your way, go around them. There is ALWAYS another way. 

I'm sorry, I'm old, I'll be 33 yrs old next wednesday and my out look on things is so different now. 






  <--- he cracks me the heck up..


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## ceelovejay (Aug 24, 2006)

It seems like MAC is such an easy target, though.  Like, are they going on hate crusades of the companies who decide to contract with MAC too (the fashion designers, award shows, etc.)?  They need to hit it from all sides for it to really be effective.

(And yes I know I just bumped an old thread. Sue me.  lol)


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## martygreene (Aug 24, 2006)

Bumping old threads is fine, we encourage bumping old threads rather than starting new ones on existing topics!

Yes, those of us in the industry who are disappointed with Estee Lauder and its subsidiaries with their practices in the industry are also making our displeasure known to those who contract with them. Particularly those of us who traditionally worked Fashion Week, have been lobbying the designers and everyone to get independant artists back in, and the corporate take-over out.


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## MisStarrlight (Aug 28, 2006)

I don't know if this has been said or not, but MAC has taken over 59 of the 90-something shows at this upcoming fashion week.

I dunno what to make of it, but figured it was worth noting.


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## LineausBH58 (Sep 8, 2006)

wow...so do i hate MAC now??  just kidding....eveyone has said it...MAC is a company...and ALL companies #1 goal is to make money...point blank.   i do have a few questions
1. what is a tear sheet?
2. Is it now fair to say getting into MAC might not be the best way for an artist BUT the only way?
3. The guy with the blog....does he really think that MAC MA only have MAC in their kits?
4. Who only has MAC in there kits and why?

i think thats it...i think i am re-thinking my thoughts on MAC... as far as even trying to work there... just because... the blog guy said something right... they are more sales people...(please no one take offence) I mean the counters* I go to*(not every counter in the world)... most of the counter people... are not even wearing makeup...and i don't mean they are looking "nat." i mean they do not have makeup on... and i'm at the counter at least 3 days a week...

thats it... this is a good topic


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## Beauty Mark (Sep 15, 2006)

If you're working for MAC and handed out as a MAC artist, I doubt the company would let you use anything but MAC. It's promotion for their company. If you had a kit with more- Nars than MAC, it would look questionable. I imagine they're given makeup for free to use, too.

I've been reading more about the MAC issues, and they make sense to me why the makeup artists are upset. Undercutting sucks and it should be a concern if you're a makeup artist (in other fields, I've noticed people who charge much less than going rate aren't very good.) You can argue all you like that quality work will always mean you will have work, but some people are sated with crappy quality or worse, they feel no reason to hire anyone if the quality is that bad. If doing makeup is not only your livelihood but as your life passion, I can totally understand what they're saying.

Paying people off seems shady, too.


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## redambition (Oct 2, 2006)

it happens everywhere, not just the fashion shows. 

here in australia, mac is still fairly exclusive and not that easy to get - only a couple of department stores carry it (at select sites, not every store), and there are only a few mac stores. in fact, here in aus we see napoleon perdis doing what mac seems to be doing in the USA. stores everywhere, in house makeup courses (that i doubt the value of sometimes as they are all about napoleon product) saturation of the market, taking over fashion week etc. at the end of the day, the company is trying to make a buck and they will do whatever they can to get it. 

for me, as a consumer, i will buy the makeup that i like and that i feel is of decent quality and that suits me. LEs, rare items etc are of no interest unless i actually like the colours and textures. so far i've had better results with mac than with other brands. im not against trying other brands, but i do hold several mac products dear.

edit: another thought.

I have a friend studying a basic make up course so she can do a bit of part-time freelancing (special occasion make up, small weddings etc). discussing kit with her, we and her teacher all came to the conculsion that for something like she is doing, it's important to use brand names that customers would know and trust, as well as mixing in professional products, maybe some low end products if colours are suitable and then some stage/tv style makeup. it's all about perception and availability. for what she will be doing, if she used crazy high end, hard to get pro stuff it could hurt rather than help - because her clients may not be able to get a tube of the lippy or gloss she used to touch up, or they wouldn't recognise what she was using and might not trust the quality. sure, if you're an artist that does high end stuff, fashion shows, television and stage then you can use whatever you want... but if you're making over someone for a special day or night, you want them to feel comfortable and safe with the products that you are using... and you want them to feel that they could maintain the look they have for the time period they need it for. that's my opinion in any case.


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## amoona (Oct 2, 2006)

I know I maybe a little late getting into this topic but I just wanted to put my two cents in. A lot of self-absorbed people, in many different industries, like to be "different" and trash people who fall into a trend. I always find it funny that all those "different" people tend to be the same. I just find it really snobbish that there are people who trash others because of the make-up product that they use, because the product is "trendy". Well duh, of course people are going to use the trendy and affordable product. I'd love to purchase Nars and other high end cosmetic lines but I'm a starving college student! haha

No, I don't plan on making make-up artistry my career but it is so fun to do. MAC makes it fun as well! I use MAC because I had to go to a wedding and I was tired of seeing all my cousins with this beautiful elaborate make-up so I went into a MAC store at my local mall. The artist was one of the most helpful sales person I ever met. He not only sold me the product, he showed me how to apply it as well as taking the time to give me a face chart and write it all out just incase I forgot.

I've never experienced that type of service at any other make-up counter, even Estee Lauder. That is why I began to use MAC, I continue to use it because it's fun!

If people want to seem superior to the average joe because they're supposed to be professional then fine but it makes it hard for the average joe to feel compasionate for your cause when you're trashing us. haha I just always find it funny, like I said before, how people try so hard to be "different" when their form of being different becomes popular.


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## whitnie (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *amoona* 

 
_If people want to seem superior to the average joe because they're supposed to be professional then fine but it makes it hard for the average joe to feel compasionate for your cause when you're trashing us. haha I just always find it funny, like I said before, how people try so hard to be "different" when their form of being different becomes popular._

 
couldn't have said it better.


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## aziza (Apr 5, 2007)

Bump!


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## martygreene (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *SumtingSweet* 

 
_Bump!_

 
Actaully, since there is a stickied thread about this, I think I'm going to go ahead and close this thread, and copy it's contents into the sticky.


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