# Please be VERY VERY Careful



## Hawkeye (Mar 16, 2007)

I was having lunch with my dad over at my folks house and a knock came to the door. I went over and answered it (seriously, I would never do this normally unless someone were with me or i was expecting them - ie: UPS Man, Mail lady, etc).

There was this girl there, and she was doing a contest, then started coughing. She asked for a glass of water.

I asked my dad to get the water since - I told her- the kitchen was at the other end of the house (Lie). He comes over and gives her the water, by that time I let him handle it and I was already calling the police. He said she took one sip and left.

This girl was trying to get into our house. She tried not to make it obvious, but the coughing was forced (you know that cough you do to sometimes get outta work? Yup thats the one), and after I had spoken to the police.... they said that she tried it already on someone else and didn't get through but she DID do it on someone else and did get in and took some stuff.

So PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be careful ladies.

P.S. I know nobody lives in my neighborhood but this is one of those- If it happens to you hopefully you will know what to do sorta things


----------



## ..kels* (Mar 16, 2007)

creepy.. i'm always a freak about answering the door. i'm glad you & your dad handled it safely!


----------



## Beauty Mark (Mar 16, 2007)

You really can't trust anyone these days.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 16, 2007)

Yeh i dont answer my door at all...  unless i know the person.


----------



## aquarius11 (Mar 16, 2007)

Wow, that was quick and smart thinking on your part...you must have had a hunch that she was suspicious.  I'm glad nothing happened, though.  Thanks for sharing this tidbit of news with us...and you are right, it can happen to anyone.  It's becoming increasingly difficult to trust anybody these days...what a shame.  And I am such a naive, innocent-thinking type person and my DH is always warning me to be careful.  I'll definitely use more caution from now on when someone comes to my door.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 16, 2007)

i have a sign on my door that usually deters people, and if it doesn't, I'll generally answer the door with a loaded weapon. It's airsoft but it's in the holster and my hand is on the grip. 
Paranoid? Maybe.


----------



## Kimberleigh (Mar 16, 2007)

Our house is set up kind of weird, so I can't see out the front door without opening it.  Needless to say, if my husband isn't home to answer the door, it just doesn't get answered.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 16, 2007)

Heh at my Moms house, my Dad installed a camera that views on the TV...  So if she's home alone, she can switch on the TV Camera and see who's at the front door, b4 she opens it.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Hawkeye* 

 
_seriously, I would never do this normally unless someone were with me or i was expecting them - ie: UPS Man, Mail lady, etc)._

 
My co-worker and I were actually talking about this a few weeks back...  How trusting we are to people in a uniform...

I mean think about it...  How hard would it be for a man, to buy a brown button up shirt and pants, and hold a official UPS package that he picked up at the UPS Store.

Knock Knock....

Rapist - UPS!!

You - One Second!!

*you open door*

*rapist pushes you down and locks door behind you*

Instant sexual assault in your own home..

We all really let our guard down when it comes to people were expecting...  And even those were not, when we see that they are wearing a familiar uniform.

What about like people like the cable guy, and the GAS man.  We openly let them in our houses, and offer them something to drink...  It's happened before...


----------



## Beauty Mark (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_i have a sign on my door that usually deters people, and if it doesn't, I'll generally answer the door with a loaded weapon. It's airsoft but it's in the holster and my hand is on the grip. 
Paranoid? Maybe._

 
What's on the sign?


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Beauty Mark* 

 
_What's on the sign?_

 
PLEASE READ PRIOR TO RINGING THE BELL OR KNOCKING ON THE DOOR. 


The residents of this house have a widely varied routine and sleeping times.  When you knock on the door or ring the bell the three dogs go postal and generally wake someone which puts you in the uncomfortable position of coming face to face with someone who is a) likely to be very unhappy at the moment and b) attempting to wrestle three dogs away from the door.  Note here only one of them is known to bite. 


Parents of children who are guests: Please feel free to ring the bell or knock on the door.  You’re expected generally. 


Service Personnel with an appointment:  Please feel free to ring the bell.  We called you. 


We, therefore, highly recommend that the following people do NOT attempt to engage our attention and kindly move on down the street.  


Unexpected guests:  Sorry we’re full.  Make a courtesy call before just showing up.  (Exemptions given if you’re here to hand us a check for over $200, delivering free beer, pizza, or all of the aforementioned). 


Solicitors:  We have all the magazine subscriptions, services, candy, etc.., that anybody could want.  We also have a great internet connection so we really don’t need your product.  If we did we’d order it.  Look down at the door mat and take a hint.  Don’t ring the bell. 


Missionaries, Moonies, and all other people with a message:  We appreciate the thought but we’re not interested in visiting with you.  See the above information about the internet.  We do our research on topics that interest us.  Yours most likely does not. Don’t ring the bell.  



Thank You


----------



## ..kels* (Mar 16, 2007)

haha that letter on the door is such a great idea!


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 16, 2007)

We live on the corner. We get EVERYONE. :/


----------



## Raerae (Mar 16, 2007)

Shimmer has one of those, "NOT WELCOME" door mats i bet =p


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 16, 2007)

I actually do.
"We found God, we love our vacuum, and we gave at the office. Thanks."


----------



## GalleyGirl (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_My co-worker and I were actually talking about this a few weeks back...  How trusting we are to people in a uniform...

I mean think about it...  How hard would it be for a man, to buy a brown button up shirt and pants, and hold a official UPS package that he picked up at the UPS Store.

Knock Knock....

Rapist - UPS!!

You - One Second!!

*you open door*

*rapist pushes you down and locks door behind you*

Instant sexual assault in your own home..

We all really let our guard down when it comes to people were expecting...  And even those were not, when we see that they are wearing a familiar uniform.

What about like people like the cable guy, and the GAS man.  We openly let them in our houses, and offer them something to drink...  It's happened before..._

 
  That's how the Boston Strangler got into his victim's apartments, he pretended to be a painter hired by the landlord...until I heard that story, I would have been very trusting to anyone wearing a uniform, or saying they were sent by an apt manager.


----------



## GalleyGirl (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_i have a sign on my door that usually deters people, and if it doesn't, I'll generally answer the door with a loaded weapon. It's airsoft but it's in the holster and my hand is on the grip. 
Paranoid? Maybe._

 
  What kind of weapon?  I live in a borderline difficult area, and I've been meaning into looking into various forms of protection.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 16, 2007)

It's a full metal full auto airsoft weapon. Fires 6mm plastic bb's 315 fps. 
Fatal? Not by a long shot.
However, upon first glance you don't know if it's real or not, and getting shot with it particularly at close range, isn't fun.


----------



## Chic 2k6 (Mar 16, 2007)

I've had that happen to me, two blokes knocked on my door, i opened it thinking my package had arrived but they asked for a glass of water and their eyes were shifty, (im observant)

Man: Can i have a glass of water please?
Me: Uhh sorry, mom told me not to give anything to someone i dont know *made that up*
Man: Oh right, couldnt i have a sip?
Me: uhh be right back, gotta shut the door though
Man: Ok
Me: *legs it up the stairs and watches outta the window*

he cleared off after 10 mins :| scared me :| its so dumb how people think they can get away with that. stupid f**ks


----------



## Simply Elegant (Mar 16, 2007)

The same thing happened to me. It's so creepy. He was trying to sell something and tried to come in when I didn't answer the door.


----------



## YvetteJeannine (Mar 16, 2007)

_*I generally keep my door locked when my husband isn't home; and I really don't answer the door unless I'm expecting someone...One time I was napping and didn't have the door locked...I heard somebody ring the bell, and then I heard the door open...I was scared shitless...I went out there a few minutes later when I'd summoned the courage, and nobody was there...I think it was a Mormon looking around to see if anyone was there (they were coming to our house once a week last year)...Now I lock the door for two reasons: 1) I don't want intruders, obviously...  2) If anybody DOES decide to help themselves in, I now have a large Wheaten Terrier that WILL rip them to shreds...If it's a rapist/burglar at the door, that's fine; Cloe can tear in to them all she wants...but I don't want a little Girl Scout getting torn up if she decides to open the door....It sure would teach people to never go univited into somebody's house again, though
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




*_


----------



## Raerae (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *GalleyGirl* 

 
_What kind of weapon?  I live in a borderline difficult area, and I've been meaning into looking into various forms of protection._

 
Guns dont always offer protection...

Lots of people get shot by their own gun...  Because they think that someone seeing a gun, will cause them to back down.  And they aren't prepared to use it.  Seeing a air-soft gun, if the guy really was planning to hurt you, might just make him panic and make sure he hurt you even more, so you can't use the gun on him.  Just becareful when you bring a weapon to the door.  

You'd honestly be better off having a phone in your hand with 911 ready to send.  This way if you did get into a bad situation at the door you could dial 911 if something bad happened.  Your a lot safer with the police on the way, than you are being hurt by your own gun, knife, tazer, whatever.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *aquarius11* 

 
_Wow, that was quick and smart thinking on your part...you must have had a hunch that she was suspicious. I'm glad nothing happened, though. Thanks for sharing this tidbit of news with us...and you are right, it can happen to anyone. It's becoming increasingly difficult to trust anybody these days...what a shame. And I am such a naive, innocent-thinking type person and my DH is always warning me to be careful. I'll definitely use more caution from now on when someone comes to my door._

 
You know it was really weird because as I approached the door I had this strange feeling - to be careful. So when we started talking this feeling was very very strong and I just felt I had to keep an eye on the door.

Just to give you guys an update: 
My dad had told me he suspected she was a "druggie" because of the whole Pharmacist thing you know they look for signs etc whatever that would be "suspicious" and tonight as I was driving home I noticed her again by the stop sign at the end of the street and I didn't even know it was her until I was right up at the stop sign- but the feeling just overwhelmed me again.

It's really just listening to the gut instinct. 

And you know I was so nervous about it- and this is strong coming from me because to be perfectly honest I don't get freaked out that easily. But I was really scared because even though I kid about not liking the kids next door, I really do sort of care about them and I don't want them hurt and I was so nervous about that. So I called my dad's next door neighbor about an hour after she got home and told her what happened and asked if she'd keep an eye on the house for us. But that was just really scary.


----------



## prinzessin784 (Mar 16, 2007)

whoa that is really creepy.  There are some weird people in this world, it's scary to think about how vulnerable you can be just by being a nice person!!  Good for you for having your wits about you though!


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 17, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Guns dont always offer protection...

Lots of people get shot by their own gun...  Because they think that someone seeing a gun, will cause them to back down.  And they aren't prepared to use it.  Seeing a air-soft gun, if the guy really was planning to hurt you, might just make him panic and make sure he hurt you even more, so you can't use the gun on him.  Just becareful when you bring a weapon to the door.  

You'd honestly be better off having a phone in your hand with 911 ready to send.  This way if you did get into a bad situation at the door you could dial 911 if something bad happened.  Your a lot safer with the police on the way, than you are being hurt by your own gun, knife, tazer, whatever._

 
Never answer the door waving a weapon of any kind around.
Ever.

However, wearing a holstered weapon (which I do, in this case, it's airsoft) isn't a bad thing either.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 17, 2007)

Well- it's kind of unnerving thats for sure-

Now Shimmer your post made me think of this- and i went to find it and I couldn't find it but it made me laugh and I mentioned my dad to try this:

This is the best security system ever. 
Take your husbands pants or a guys pair of blue pants and rip them up, put them on the porch. use some ketchup all over them.

Put three BIG water bowls and food bowls on the front porch fill with the food bowl with dog food.

Throw a few beer cans on the porch-

Leave a note on the door that reads this: 

Bubba- Went to go get more beer. Before you come in, be careful, Killer already got the mail man- he was real hungry today so were the two others. 

Love
Joe


----------



## Raerae (Mar 17, 2007)

lol...

Like those ginormous bowls of dog food, and the owners come home with the chijuajua


----------



## tadzio79 (Mar 17, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_My co-worker and I were actually talking about this a few weeks back... How trusting we are to people in a uniform...

I mean think about it... How hard would it be for a man, to buy a brown button up shirt and pants, and hold a official UPS package that he picked up at the UPS Store.

Knock Knock....

Rapist - UPS!!

You - One Second!!

*you open door*

*rapist pushes you down and locks door behind you*

Instant sexual assault in your own home..

We all really let our guard down when it comes to people were expecting... And even those were not, when we see that they are wearing a familiar uniform.

What about like people like the cable guy, and the GAS man. We openly let them in our houses, and offer them something to drink... It's happened before..._

 
yeah I totally know what you mean.
After reading many posts here, I realize how naive I can be at times.

A couple of weeks ago, there was a leak on the bedroom ceiling of my mom's apartment. I went over there the next day to clean up to help her out (wet blankets and what have you), and someone rang the apartment from the gate. When I peeked outside, the guy said that he was there for inspection.

The thing was, her apartment was inspected a few weeks ago and there were a couple of things that the inspector had noted and alaerted the owner/manager (she lives in her own house somewhere else) to fix. It hadn't been done.

so I let him in, not thinking much. he had an id badge, and I didn't think he was suspicious initially. But he asked if I knew the manager well and if I knew how to contact her (that's when I was like, well, Why can't you get a hold of her? don't you have her info? wtf?). 

He also asked me if I was a minor (now that I think about it, I wonder if he was a sicko... eeewww!!!) and I looked at him funny, and I was like no, but why does it matter? 

I basically started to stare him down and was following his every move and never left him alone (the guy wasn't big at all, looked like he might be in his 30s, he didn't have anything on hand that I could see other than his little blackberry, and the kitchen was just a few steps away - HELLO BIG KITCHEN KNIFE!) 

The guy was in and out the door in less than 2 minutes. 

My mom talked to her manager the next day, and the manager said that there's been theft/rape going around, and that the inspector should have contacted her first prior to coming into the apartments. 

I'm glad that nothing happened, but it was a huge lesson.
Thinking back on how I kind of scared him away, thank god it worked, but what if he wasn't scared off and tried to attack me or something? 

so yeah, don't trust people because they're in uniform!


----------



## IcesUltraGlam7 (Mar 17, 2007)

It was nice of your dad to get the water can't trust anyone these day's.I'm glad you both are safe..I reccommend you call the police if you see her near your property again.
Thanks for sharing..


----------



## caffn8me (Mar 17, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Hawkeye* 

 
_P.S. I know nobody lives in my neighborhood_

 
Don't your neighbours live in your neighbourhood?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Thanks for the useful warning!


----------



## Beauty Mark (Mar 17, 2007)

Quote:

  so yeah, don't trust people because they're in uniform!  
 
People who used to have those jobs also sometimes discard the old clothes to secondhand shops or to family members. I've known some people who do that with postal uniforms, even though I don't think that they're supposed to do that.


----------



## MxAxC-_ATTACK (Mar 17, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Yeh i dont answer my door at all...  unless i know the person._

 
Me either. I look thru the peep hole.. and if I dont know the person i just walk away and continue with my business.. 

I once had a guy follow me to my house , From High school. and I DID answer the door. He said I flipped him off (??um no..) and He was going to stay in my driveway so He could tell my dad....( 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 )
It creeped me out , I told my dad when he got home, (the guy eventually left After I made a huge scene outside my house telling him to get off my property) and my dad told me to next time call the police


----------



## caffn8me (Mar 17, 2007)

If I am not expecting anyone, I don't answer the door.  It's that simple.


----------



## MACreation (Mar 17, 2007)

This reminds me, last week i ordered pizze and the delivery lady, comes thu the unlocked front door up the stairs and knocks on the indoor door. i live in a house, not apartment, and that SCARED me. Thankkfully my sister's boyfriend was on the couch right next to the door, so i know nothing would have happened.


----------



## faifai (Mar 17, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *MACreation* 

 
_This reminds me, last week i ordered pizze and the delivery lady, comes thu the unlocked front door up the stairs and knocks on the indoor door. i live in a house, not apartment, and that SCARED me. Thankkfully my sister's boyfriend was on the couch right next to the door, so i know nothing would have happened._

 
What the heck?! That'd be dangerous for both parties involved. If the owner of the house was a shady person or easily alarmed, the pizza person could be killed, and if the pizza person is the "bad guy" then how insanely frightening for the person in the house at the time! Such a lack of common sense. Lock the door and if you're a delivery person, don't just invite yourself in to a complete stranger's house!

A similar thing did happen to my aunt. She's the last person in her house to leave for work each day, and as she was getting ready someone rang the doorbell. She was in a hurry so she looked through the peephole, thought it was just a solicitor or something, and went back upstairs. The guy rang the bell continuously for almost 5 minutes. It finally stopped and just as she was about to go downstairs, she heard a huge crash from the back of the house. 

She went downstairs (wtf? that wouldn't have been my first instinct!) and looked at the back door - the guy had grabbed some bricks and thrown them at the sliding glass door, causing it to almost get shattered, and was about to do it again. My aunt started screaming at him and was like "what are you doing, get the hell away from here, I am calling the police!" and ran back upstairs to call them. The police arrived within minutes and caught the guy as he ran through other people's backyards to get away. My aunt had to install her very first security system after that and she was mostly pissed that this guy had "the nerve" to do that. It scared me, because she lives only 2 miles away.


----------



## redambition (Mar 19, 2007)

it's a crazy world we live in. how bad is it that people are afraid to answer the door?

i always keep the doors locked (i just moved back in with mum and dad and they laugh at me for this), and if i answer the door i leave the screen door shut and locked. 

i also never open the door fully if i'm not expecting someone. I stand behind it and brace it with my foot, ready to shut it again if need be.


----------



## little teaser (Mar 19, 2007)

i never answer my door even if i know them.. i have told people if you are gonna come over to call if not im not gonna answer the door.. im very paronoid like that.. i trust no one


----------



## Dark_Phoenix (Mar 19, 2007)

I don't answer the door, even if I'm alone. If a package needs to be signed for, our housekeeper signs. 
I'm pretty paranoid, like never leaving curtains open, and making sure windows are locked, gates are locked, door locked, etc.. I don't want to be a victim of theft or something just because of carelessness.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 19, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *redambition* 

 
_it's a crazy world we live in. how bad is it that people are afraid to answer the door?_

 
I think it's a natural progression...

You hear about "back in the day" we used to leave our doors unlocked etc etc.  Yet these same people never tell you the stores of the people who got robbed.  My grandparents did the same thing, until they came home one day and all the silver, jewelery, and other valueables were stolen.

People are just a lot more cautious these days.  I lock my door because thats how I grew up.  It's like a reflex, open door, close door, lock door.  I've been doing it since I was little.  Thats how my Mom taught me.  And I didn't grow up in a bad neighborhood, most of oue street slept with their doors open.  The reason my Mom does it, is because it was her house that got robbed back when she lived with her parents.

Were also reporting crime a lot more.  So it seems like things are terrible these days, but in reality there just being reported more.  Not to mention with a larger population, even thought the % of crime and theft remains the same, the instances of crime increase.  So there are a lot of reasons.  Add in a few reports of rapists bashing in door and raping the single women inside (you KNOW it's happened b4 it got reported the first time in the papers), and the increased networking power women have, and it's only natural were all a bit more cautious.

I know I'll be teaching my children to lock the door behind them, and treat strangers at the door as suspect.  I'm not paranoid, just taking precaution not to be a victim.


----------



## pixichik77 (Mar 19, 2007)

Never buy a gun just for protection.  Guns require training and discipline to operate.


----------



## ~LadyLocks~ (Mar 19, 2007)

Oh wow, that's really creepy.  I've been taught to always trust my instintcs, god gave us this gift for a reason so use it!


----------



## user79 (Mar 21, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_i have a sign on my door that usually deters people, and if it doesn't, I'll generally answer the door with a loaded weapon. It's airsoft but it's in the holster and my hand is on the grip. 
Paranoid? Maybe._

 
Holy crap,a weapon to answer the door? Wow, I could never imagine doing that. We don't even have a chain on our door. Call it naivite but I guess I live in a safe area and armed robbery or things of that kind aren't really very common at all. If I'm home alone and it's a man at the door that I'm not expecting, I just ask through the door who it is and what he wants before opening.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 21, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *pixichik77* 

 
_Never buy a gun just for protection.  Guns require training and discipline to operate._

 
Yeah totally. I must've missed out on all that when I was in the army. They just handed me an m16 and a 9 and told me to figure it out...




All joking aside...whatever a preferred weapon of choice may be, it's always wise to be familiar with it. To use it. To KNOW your weapon. Be it a baseball bat, a taser, a firearm, whatever, you have to be comfortable with it.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 21, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *MissChievous* 

 
_Holy crap,a weapon to answer the door? Wow, I could never imagine doing that. We don't even have a chain on our door. Call it naivite but I guess I live in a safe area and armed robbery or things of that kind aren't really very common at all. If I'm home alone and it's a man at the door that I'm not expecting, I just ask through the door who it is and what he wants before opening._

 
Generally, I live in a very safe area. Quite honestly, I only do it when magazine salesmen, church visitors, or teenagers knock on my door because just the site of it is enough to make them never return. I don't like being interrupted. 

I don't advise anyone unfamiliar with weapons, be they firearms or airsoft, to utilize one. Guns aren't toys, they're not a joke, and they aren't a light responsibility. 

But...there is the secondary issue.

Owning a weapon and being willing to USE it are two wholly different things.  In my case, with a firearm, if I feel threatened enough to raise it, I feel comfortable using it. NEVER point a weapon at ANYONE without willingness to utilize the projectile with deadly force.  Never fire to maim. Never use a weapon as a threat. They aren't threats, they're promises.

In fact, for 96% of the population, I'd probably say leave the firearms to someone else to handle, but then again, I'm totally fond of the second amendment.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 21, 2007)

And a lot of people have to remember that the South is a totally different culture than most places. I own a gun, I know how to use it. I was never in the army but it really is not unusual to have one close by. Maybe not so much in ATL anymore but in the more rural areas- oh yeah. 

But anyway-I may wind up doing that shimmer, next time someone weird like that knocks on my door.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 21, 2007)

Oh, let me add, I DO live in ranchland area of Texas. We've had weapons since we were toddlers, we'll have weapons til we die. Little old blue hairs in the mercedes in the left lane? They're probably packing.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 21, 2007)

Only a true southerner would understand the humor/and the truth! in that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



LOL


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 21, 2007)

You aren't kidding.

Additionally:

A handgun is a very poor choice for home defense. The bullet will go through walls if the target is missed (which it likely will be). 
A much better and more effective alternative is a shotgun with birdshot. Much less likely to penetrate walls, it scatters, and it hurts like a motherfucker. The scatter effect makes the target easier to hit and in being hit, he's pretty much guaranteed to go down.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 21, 2007)

While I doubt you'd be afriad to pull a trigger shimmer, I'm willing to bet most of the women on the board here (myself included) dont have the stomache to do the same.

Thats why i prefer phones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Oh, and the NRA need to get over themselves =p


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 21, 2007)

I didn't bring the NRA into it.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't agree with extremists of any group, even gun owners/users.  That said, lets leave the NRA for another discussion another time.

If you don't have the stomach to pull the trigger, a firearm is definitely NOT your weapon of choice. 
And, honestly a phone is a good one, but it's no more reliable than any other. Just because you dialed 911 doesn't mean a) anyone is going to appear anytime soon and b) if you're on a cellphone they're going to be able to locate you, particularly if he smothers your mouth and you drop the phone. It'll be treated like a prank call and left alone. They won't go into the logistics of contacting your SP to ping your phone until you're good and cold, or bruised and shivering, if you're lucky.
Common sense and situational awareness are your two best weapons.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 21, 2007)

And, when it comes to protection of self and child, you'd be surprised what you'd have the stomach to do, up to and including savagely beating someone who hurt you or your child. 
It's not called FIGHT or FLIGHT for no reason.


----------



## Willa (Mar 21, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *MissChievous* 

 
_Holy crap,a weapon to answer the door? Wow, I could never imagine doing that. We don't even have a chain on our door. Call it naivite but I guess I live in a safe area and armed robbery or things of that kind aren't really very common at all. If I'm home alone and it's a man at the door that I'm not expecting, I just ask through the door who it is and what he wants before opening._

 
Thats exactly what I was going to say
Maybe I'm really naive, or living in Montreal isnt that scary...

If im not expecting anyone, I just ask who is it, and then I decide if I want to open the door or not.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 21, 2007)

It's not so much scary as it is, like I said, I don't like to be disturbed. There's a sign on my door for a reason. 
I live in a very middle class white bread neighborhood, privacy fences and pools, etc., but I don't like solicitors. Ever.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 21, 2007)

total 2nd shimmer. People would be amazed at what they suddenly have the stomach to do when faced in a life or death situation.


----------



## Willa (Mar 21, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Hawkeye* 

 
_total 2nd shimmer. People would be amazed at what they suddenly have the stomach to do when faced in a life or death situation._

 
I totaly agree but for me, opening the door isnt a matter of life or death 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I don't like to be disturbed either, the appartment I had before this one, it was... 10 times a week. Some neighbors I had, from Bosnia, didnt speak a word of french (my first language) and they couldnt even say yes or no in english. They were rigning at my door every day, or theirs visitors and such. I tried to explain them... no results... lolll

I was door #2, in a building of 24.
People maybe tought I was the genitor, who knows.

Now, where I live, since 6 months, I only had a women who told me from downstairs that she came to give me ''my dog back''. (I dont have a dog...) I told her and closed the door before she could come upstairs.

People are strange.


----------



## geeko (Mar 22, 2007)

i live in a very safe country too (firearms are banned in our country, if a person fires a live shot, the penalty is death sentence - ya it's that serious)...and i'm living in an apartment, so even if we open the door it's fine, because we have a gate jus outside the door.

whenever i order food to my house, i only open the inner door, i keep the gate outside my door close and the delivery man will pass the food to me through the gate.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 22, 2007)

Yikes! What country do you live in with such restrictions on firearms?


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

Singapore?


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 22, 2007)

True...

But wouldn't that defeat the whole purpose- you fire off a live firearm and then boom your dead? Well it's their country guess they can do whatever they want.


----------



## Katial8r (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Oh, let me add, I DO live in ranchland area of Texas. We've had weapons since we were toddlers, we'll have weapons til we die. Little old blue hairs in the mercedes in the left lane? They're probably packing._

 
This is the exact reason why I moved from Texas back to Canada ( I lived there for 2 1/2 yrs). I could not live like that and I especially couldn't stand to bring up my two children there. 

I was scared of intruders, robbers, thieves. etc but the combination of those, and the amount of people walking around carring guns for protection (and the possibility of those people accidentally shooting someone) was too much for me to handle. 

I was so scared to let my children have play dates because of the possibility of them finding a gun in a drawer and think it is a toy. I know most people with guns are responsible, but there have been times where people do get careless.

Living in fear of all those possibilities drove me to a breakdown. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Please don't get me wrong. Texas is a gorgeous state and the people there are great! I just don't have the guts to live there.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *makeupnewbie* 

 
_firearms are banned in our country, if a person fires a live shot, the penalty is death sentence - ya it's that serious_

 
Sounds like some good gun control laws to me!


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Katial8r* 

 
_This is the exact reason why I moved from Texas back to Canada ( I lived there for 2 1/2 yrs). I could not live like that and I especially couldn't stand to bring up my two children there. 

I was scared of intruders, robbers, thieves. etc but the combination of those, and the amount of people walking around carring guns for protection (and the possibility of those people accidentally shooting someone) was too much for me to handle. 

I was so scared to let my children have play dates because of the possibility of them finding a gun in a drawer and think it is a toy. I know most people with guns are responsible, but there have been times where people do get careless.

Living in fear of all those possibilities drove me to a breakdown. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Please don't get me wrong. Texas is a gorgeous state and the people there are great! I just don't have the guts to live there._

 
That is some serious anxiety. 
You do realize that guns don't hurt people, PEOPLE hurt people, I'm sure. 
I rarely allow my kids to go to someone else's house for a playdate anyway, but if I do, my major concern isn't, nor has it ever been weapons. My kids have been taught literally since birth NOT to touch a firearm, and if another child does, to immediately remove themselves from the area and to tell an adult. 
There's not a live round in this house, currently, nor are  there firing pins in any of the real weapons. 

Education is integral when it comes to weaponry, and you'd be surprised how many people in small towns across Texas have taught their kids better than to play with guns. It's usually the urban residents who have issues with kids playing with guns...because they're never taught NOT to. :/


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Sounds like some good gun control laws to me! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 
There's no such thing as gun control. There is only "honest criminal control". :shrug:


----------



## Raerae (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_There's no such thing as gun control. There is only "honest criminal control". :shrug:_

 
The harder it is to obtain a fire arm through reduction in availibility, the less chance a fire arm would be used.

Sure there are those who would still use fire arms.  But an automatic death sentance for firing a shot would deter many from using a fire arm.  And those that still choose to use them, would be using them in crimes where they probably would have had used guns anyways.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_The harder it is to obtain a fire arm through reduction in availibility, the less chance a fire arm would be used.

Sure there are those who would still use fire arms.  But an automatic death sentance for firing a shot would deter many from using a fire arm.  And those that still choose to use them, would be using them in crimes where they probably would have had used guns anyways._

 
Is that really the  type of country you want to live in?


----------



## Raerae (Mar 22, 2007)

<shrug>

I really have no sympathy for people who use lethal force against others as a means of intimidation.

Other than law inforcement and military, I see no reason for anyone else to carry a fire arm.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

A government that doesn't allow its civilians to arm themselves is a government intent upon opressing those people...because without armament they have no means to protect  themselves from people like Hussein, the Taliban, whatever, from entering into power. 
Things can change to create a strong (too strong) central government and the people have no means to defend their way of life.
Obviously that's an extreme case, but had the point still stands.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_A government that doesn't allow its civilians to arm themselves is a government intent upon opressing those people..._

 
We wouldn't have a chance to stand up against the American government anyways if they were intent on opressing us.  The time has long since passes where a civilian "army" has a chance against the types of weapons employed by the military in the modern age.

Parhaps back in the day when Armies employed the same weaponry that was availible to civilians you would have a point.  But that hasn't been the case since military technology far surpassed the technology availible to civilians.

 Quote:

  because without armament they have no means to protect  themselves from people like Hussein, the Taliban, whatever, from entering into power.  
 
Yes, we saw how well the civilians prevented Hussein, and the Taliban from entering into power.  Military coups are called, "MILITARY" for a reason.  It is only with military weaponry that they are possible.  

[/quote]Things can change to create a strong (too strong) central government and the people have no means to defend their way of life.
Obviously that's an extreme case, but had the point still stands. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/quote]

We already have a strong central government.  Were it to suddenly decide to not support our way of life, and if the soldiers in our military decide to go along and support it, our way of life in a instant, would cease to exist.

Thats the only hope we have, is that no signifigant portion of the active military would go along with it.  As they are the only ones who could protect us.  Not a bunch of Texans with handguns and rifles.


----------



## Willa (Mar 22, 2007)

I don't feel opressed...
Here in canada, if you want a gun, you need a ''permit'' (sorry don't know the word) and often people just have hunting guns.

People with guns here : Police and criminals.

Ordinary people like me dont feel the need of having one.
I could also say that most of the people never saw a real gun...


----------



## Raerae (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Willa* 

 
_People with guns here : Police and criminals._

 
Yup, I think it makes the line fairly obvious whe it comes to who's who.

I personally woulnd't have a problem with police having the authority to shoot first in that type of a situation eigther.  Considering if you possessed a weapon in a society where they were illegal excluding law enforcement and military, it's obvious you own it for the intent of causing harm to others.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 22, 2007)

I couldn't imagine anyone being that afraid of an object. I would only be afraid of the person behind the object. An object can do nothing unless there is a person causing the motion. I have to agree with Shimmer a country without allowance of the right to bear arms faces a very dangerous situation on a very individual level. Having very little regard for the personal decisions of the individual and forcing the "greater good" or "Common good" on people thereby not allowing them to have a choice in the matter. 

Where does the individuality go?


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_We wouldn't have a chance to stand up against the American government anyways if they were intent on opressing us.  The time has long since passes where a civilian "army" has a chance against the types of weapons employed by the military in the modern age.

Parhaps back in the day when Armies employed the same weaponry that was availible to civilians you would have a point.  But that hasn't been the case since military technology far surpassed the technology availible to civilians._

 
HAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAAA

Ok.
 Quote:

  Yes, we saw how well the civilians prevented Hussein, and the Taliban from entering into power.  Military coups are called, "MILITARY" for a reason.  It is only with military weaponry that they are possible.    
 
You just made my point. A weak people can't defend themselves.

 Quote:

  We already have a strong central government.  Were it to suddenly decide to not support our way of life, and if the soldiers in our military decide to go along and support it, our way of life in a instant, would cease to exist.  
 
Soldiers dont' have a choice to "support" it or "not support" it. They don't get to pick and choose their missions. They do what  they're told when they're told.
 Quote:

  Thats the only hope we have, is that no signifigant portion of the active military would go along with it.  As they are the only ones who could protect us.  Not a bunch of Texans with handguns and rifles.  
 
You're quite mistaken actually. You'd be surprised at the interprising capability of the tinfoil hat wearers. You think the military is the only entity capable of procuring heavy duty equipment, firepower, man power, large explosives, etc.? 
No.
And, unfortunately, our soldiers are sadly lacking in training for fighting guerilla warfare. The government turns on the people of the US, you'd be surprised at perhaps not the outcome, but the tenacity with which the people who fought back did so, as well as the ferocity and capability.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Willa* 

 
_I don't feel opressed...
Here in canada, if you want a gun, you need a ''permit'' (sorry don't know the word) and often people just have hunting guns.

People with guns here : Police and criminals.

Ordinary people like me dont feel the need of having one.
I could also say that most of the people never saw a real gun..._

 
You need a permit here to carry a concealed weapon, and IIRC (I'd have to check though), you're supposed to register your weapon.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_HAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAAA

Ok._

 
Very intelligent and well thought out.


 Quote:

  You just made my point. A weak people can't defend themselves.  
 
Handguns and other types of weaponry were never illegal in those countries.  So how exactly did having firearms prevent Hussein or the Talibal from taking control of the country?  Oh right, it didn't.  

But that was your point right? Civilians dont need weaponry?  I'm glad we agree.

 Quote:

  Soldiers dont' have a choice to "support" it or "not support" it. They don't get to pick and choose their missions. They do what  they're told when they're told.  
 
Actually thats incorrect.  When it comes to fighting your *own people*, soldiers have on countless occasions chosen to not support the government or their commanding officers, and instead have supported their families and friends.  French Revolution is a perfect example.


 Quote:

  You're quite mistaken actually. You'd be surprised at the interprising capability of the tinfoil hat wearers. You think the military is the only entity capable of procuring heavy duty equipment, firepower, man power, large explosives, etc.? 
No.
And, unfortunately, our soldiers are sadly lacking in training for fighting guerilla warfare. The government turns on the people of the US, you'd be surprised at perhaps not the outcome, but the tenacity with which the people who fought back did so, as well as the ferocity and capability.  
 
Yes, you might be able to engage in a insurgency like we see in Iraq.  But as far as actually "controlling" the country, the tinfoil hat wearers dont have a chance.  And any type of large gathering of "terrorists" would be swiflty dealt with by superior firepower.


----------



## MAC_Pixie04 (Mar 22, 2007)

I think the worst scam I've heard of so far is the Jehovah's Witness/Mormon impostors.  They know on your door and tell you that they want to give you a brochure and tell you about a new center of their faith opening up and ask if you're interested.  A lot of older people open the door in my neighborhood, for one, they're all lonely elderly women, so they're grateful to talk to anybody during the day, and a lot of kids (unfortunately) open their doors without looking because they think it's another kid or that because it's an adult they have to.
The scam is similar to the UPS guy scam; but it's disgusting that they hide behind a Kingdom Hall brochure and pin or a Church of Latter Day Saints jacket<--these aren't hard to get, my friend's boyfriend went as a mormon for Halloween and his costume was VERY official and convincing.  
When they come to my door, I can look out my kitchen window and say that I'm not interested.  If they persist, I'll ask them to leave once more.  If they continue to persist, I show them that I'm one digit away from calling the police and that it would be wise of them to get the hell off of my property, which usually gets the job done.

When I was about 12, a guy named PJ came up to my door and asked to speak to my dad.  He said that my dad used to be his little league coach (which was true) and that he'd invited him over to catch up (which was not true).  I said that I couldn't let him in and that he could come back at 5 when my dad was home.  I lied and said that my mom was asleep (I was home alone) and not feeling good so nobody could come in.  He insisted on waiting on the porch and I kept asking him to just leave and come back when my dad's truck pulled up.  He kept looking at me through the window and pacing on the porch.  I shut the blinds, locked every door and window to our house and called my dad.  My dad told me that he never invited PJ to our house and that he in fact hadn't seen PJ since he was about 13 years old.  He said for me to look and see if he was still there, and he was, and he was still trying to look into the window, and the look on his face made me really uncomfortable and scared.  My dad said he was gonna leave work early so that he could get home to me, but that it would be some time because of the traffic.  I freaked out, I knew it would be more than half an hour before my dad came and I didn't know what I would do for a half an hour while this creep was pacing my front porch.  My uncle had just moved around the corner from us, so I called him and asked him to walk by my house and maybe get PJ to leave.  About 10 minutes after that I heard scuffling and yelling outside my house.  My uncle had walked by, seen PJ, asked him what he was doing on our porch and then asked him to leave and PJ pulled a sizeable pocket knife out on my uncle and threatened him.  I called the police and when PJ saw me on the phone he panicked and ran away, but he dropped his knife in our yard.  The police came and took the knife and when i said "his name was PJ" they knew exactly who I was talking about.  They were looking for him for a similar incident weeks prior.  He knocked on a kids door to ask if he could use the phone, and the kid let him in and PJ pulled the knife out on the little boy and told him not to scream, or call anybody, then cut their phone line and stole a bunch of little valuables and electronics out of their house, then rode off on the boy's bike.  It turned out that PJ was extremely emotionally unstable and very dangerous.  If I hadn't been smart enough to know what to do about him being on our porch, he could have done something terrible to me.
Unfortunately, a lot of kids DON'T know that it's not okay to  let someone in when they're home alone.  And it's sad that we live in a society where you need expensive home security and surveillance on your front door before you can open it.  Or that some of us feel the need to answer our door with a loaded weapon or other means of protection.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Very intelligent and well thought out._

 
 Laughter is always a good response to a joke, is it not?

 Quote:

  Handguns and other types of weaponry were never illegal in those countries.  So how exactly did having firearms prevent Hussein or the Talibal from taking control of the country?  Oh right, it didn't.  

But that was your point right? Civilians dont need weaponry?  I'm glad we agree.  
 
 You're also talking about a people who were never given, ever, in their history,  the same rights and privileges Americans have been given. They were, and always have been, weak, and without the ability to muster.
 Quote:

 
Actually thats incorrect.  When it comes to fighting your *own people*, soldiers have on countless occasions chosen to not support the government or their commanding officers, and instead have supported their families and friends.  French Revolution is a perfect example.

 
The French Revolution and the American Military and its indoctrination of the soldier, as well as the soldierization of the soldier, are wholly different things. 
Choosing not to support something really isn't an option when a member of the US military...unless it's an unlawful order. Now, for NOW, being told to attack US citizens is probably an unlawful order. But if those laws change? What then? At that point, the soldier has no choice. And, make an example out of a few dissidents, you're not likely to have much of a disagreement. 
Not saying that's coming, just saying it's a possibility.


 Quote:

  Yes, you might be able to engage in a insurgency like we see in Iraq.  But as far as actually "controlling" the country, the tinfoil hat wearers dont have a chance.  And any type of large gathering of "terrorists" would be swiflty dealt with by superior firepower.  
 
LMAO. That's great.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 22, 2007)

I'm still trying to figure out how anyone could deny their freedom of choice and allow some government to choose for them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 that is so sad to me.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Laughter is always a good response to a joke, is it not?_

 
Did you hear the one about the guy shot with his own gun?  It's hilarious.

 Quote:

  You're also talking about a people who were never given, ever, in their history,  the same rights and privileges Americans have been given. They were, and always have been, weak, and without the ability to muster.  
 
And where exactly are you going to be able to muster in America in the event that the government suddenly decides to become a police state (and has a military willing to enforce it's laws)?

 Quote:

  The French Revolution and the American Military and its indoctrination of the soldier, as well as the soldierization of the soldier, are wholly different things. 
Choosing not to support something really isn't an option when a member of the US military...unless it's an unlawful order. Now, for NOW, being told to attack US citizens is probably an unlawful order. But if those laws change? What then? At that point, the soldier has no choice. And, make an example out of a few dissidents, you're not likely to have much of a disagreement. 
Not saying that's coming, just saying it's a possibility.  
 
Everyone has a choice.  A soldier always has the choice, to follow, or not follow and order.  The chain of command only has power if those they are in charge of, support the chain of command.




 Quote:

  LMAO. That's great.  
 
At least we agree your argument is kinda funny.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Hawkeye* 

 
_I'm still trying to figure out how anyone could deny their freedom of choice and allow some government to choose for them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 that is so sad to me._

 
Many people dont see the need to have a choice with regards to something, who's only purpose, is death.

And thats kinda of a useless statement Hawkeye, as the government makes MANY choices for it's people.  There are plenty of things the goverment does not allow, that plenty of people dont agree with.

Stem cells, suicide, drugs, etc.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

Seriously are there any other civil liberties we'd like to give up?
How 'bout voting? Obviously our education and experience is nowhere near vast enough to handle the weight of decisions like that...it'd be better for the nation to allow the people up on the Hill to handle that.

Or, I KNOW! Double Jeopardy! Let's do away with that...I mean shit, that first punishment? It was NOTHING. You need another go 'round to really get the message through your noggin. Talk about a crime deterrent...one speeding ticket and you pay for it the rest of your life!
oooo. You were found innocent?  Bullshit. Fuck that, we're going to bring another jury in and redo this bitch because there's NO WAY you're innocent. Hold the phone. We'll keep going until we get you buddy.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Did you hear the one about the guy shot with his own gun?  It's hilarious._

 
 Sure did. He was out hunting with his dad and shot down his right leg. Ended his basketball career, could've had a scholarship. Wound up with stitches from thigh to lower shin, and doesn't have anything to say except "dammit I  got  too excited bout that buck.
 Quote:

  And where exactly are you going to be able to muster in America in the event that the government suddenly decides to become a police state (and has a military willing to enforce it's laws)?

 
The fact that you ask that is silly. You act like we live in some tiny country, where there aren't people and groups who live in preparation for that very day. 
I don't rely on them to do that, or to be there, but they are there, regardless. Lots of money is spent by people like that. *shrug*

 Quote:

 
Everyone has a choice.  A soldier always has the choice, to follow, or not follow and order.  The chain of command only has power if those they are in charge of, support the chain of command.  
 
This is where you show you have no concept of what it's like to be a soldier, or of the military mentality. That's okay though.
 Quote:

  At least we agree your argument is kinda funny.  
 
No darlin', I'm still sitting here laughing at you.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Seriously are there any other civil liberties we'd like to give up?_

 
There are plenty of civil liberties that people have already willingly given up.  Or are trying to make illegal.  Your slippery slope argument doesn't really hold much water.

The thing about the American government, is that, given the choice, anything thats currently illegal, can be made legal through voting and legeslation.  And vice versa.  Given the majority wants to make it that way.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_There are plenty of civil liberties that people have already willingly given up.  Or are trying to make illegal.  Your slippery slope argument doesn't really hold much water.

The thing about the American government, is that, given the choice, anything thats currently illegal, can be made legal through voting and legeslation.  And vice versa.  Given the majority wants to make it that way._

 
It's not a slippery slope argument. It's quite real and valid. 
If you're ready to have someone who hasn't your best interests in mind live your life and make your decisions for you, have fun with that. 
There are quite a few people who don't share the sentiment.

Homicide rates as a whole, especially homicides as a result of firearms use, are not always significantly lower in many other developed countries. This is apparent in the UK and Japan, which have very strict gun control, while Israel, Canada, and Switzerland at the same time have low homicide rates and high rates of gun distribution.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Many people dont see the need to have a choice with regards to something, who's only purpose, is death.

And thats kinda of a useless statement Hawkeye, as the government makes MANY choices for it's people. There are plenty of things the goverment does not allow, that plenty of people dont agree with.

Stem cells, suicide, drugs, etc._

 
It's not a useless statement. It just shows more and more what a bunch of stupid mindless sheep we've become to allow governments to make these decisions for us. Screw the individual. The individual doesn't exist anymore. Pretty soon we'll all be nothing more than stupid numbers being told how to act, what to like what to not like. You get killed? Big deal. Number 3435839 is dead. They weren't that important to the great command of the big brother government anyway- we can just produce another one with with the same thought patterns as that number.

And we are letting this happen. Because we don't want to offend anyone, we don't want to hurt anyone, we don't want do jack sh*t. We just want other people- the government to think for us.

Really that's what the gun control issue is all about. That's what the abortion issue is all about. That's what the drug issue is all about. That's what every issue is all about. 

WHY can the individual not make decisions for themselves?

Because it's just too hard.

They think we're stupid. And unfortunately THEY may be right.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

  And we are letting this happen. Because we don't want to offend anyone, we don't want to hurt anyone, we don't want do jack sh*t. We just want other people- the government to think for us.  
 
Exactly. Because by allowing others to think for us, we remove all accountability for ourselves.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_The fact that you ask that is silly. You act like we live in some tiny country, where there aren't people and groups who live in preparation for that very day. 
I don't rely on them to do that, or to be there, but they are there, regardless. Lots of money is spent by people like that. *shrug*_

 
And you can bet our Government already knows exactly where every one of them lives, who's in charge, and where they would plan to gather.  Mustering in a large consolidated location is suicide with the way modern weaponry works.  Just look how quickly Sadam's army was eliminated, and that army was signifigantly more powerful than anything the wacko's in Montana (or anywhere else) could put together.[/quote]

 Quote:

  This is where you show you have no concept of what it's like to be a soldier, or of the military mentality. That's okay though.  
 
The lemming mentality?  I'd like to think people's sense of honor (you know that thing so important to you guys) would prevent them from carrying out orders that are so obviously immoral.  Military mentality or not, laws or not.  And that enough of our soldiers would take up arms against those who lacked the honor to do whats right.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_And you can bet our Government already knows exactly where every one of them lives, who's in charge, and where they would plan to gather.  Mustering in a large consolidated location is suicide with the way modern weaponry works.  Just look how quickly Sadam's army was eliminated, and that army was signifigantly more powerful than anything the wacko's in Montana (or anywhere else) could put together._

 
lol. Ok.

 Quote:

 
The lemming mentality?  I'd like to think people's sense of honor (you know that thing so important to you guys) would prevent them from carrying out orders that are so obviously immoral.  Military mentality or not, laws or not.  And that enough of our soldiers would take up arms against those who lacked the honor to do whats right.  
 
Again, you're missing the f act that any soldier in the united states military has to follow a lawful order as it is given. If the letter of  the law changes, guess what, so do the orders she has to follow. 
Law changes allowing for immediate execution for disobedience of a direct order, all it takes is a few examples to be made.
*shrug* 
but, you're not going to change your perpsective, and I'm certainly not going to change mine.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Hawkeye* 

 
_Really that's what the gun control issue is all about. That's what the abortion issue is all about. That's what the drug issue is all about. That's what every issue is all about. 

WHY can the individual not make decisions for themselves?

Because it's just too hard._

 
The individual can't make those choices for themselves because a large majority of like minded individuals decided for them.  Our country isn't a democracy where every individual gets to choose what they want to do, it's a Republic.  And in Republics, MAJORITY rules.

Using your same slippery slope example of freedoms being taken away, a society of Anarchy where anyone can do anything is equally destructive.  There would be no accountability.

All things considered I think what we have going now is pretty good.  Dont like the laws on the books?  Then find enough people who agree with you, and change it.  You have that choice.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_you're missing the f act that any soldier in the united states military has to follow a lawful order as it is given. If the letter of  the law changes, guess what, so do the orders she has to follow. 
Law changes allowing for immediate execution for disobedience of a direct order, all it takes is a few examples to be made.
*shrug* 
but, you're not going to change your perpsective, and I'm certainly not going to change mine. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 
Your also missing the fact that countless times in history, those in positions of power, have been removed from it by force because the people they had command over, decided they were no longer worth following.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Your also missing the fact that countless times in history, those in positions of power, have been removed from it by force because the people they had command over, decided they were no longer worth following._

 
Never before in history has an army been trained as ours has been, either.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 22, 2007)

There is a huge following for the government to get out of our lives but the government won't move. I would personally like to thank the likes of the congress and the government that feels we are a bunch of idiotic sheep who are too incompetant to think for ourselves. 

It may be a republic but it is a beast up in washington that knows we are all too lazy to think and they know how to keep the hold on us. They know we will be distracted by hollywood and these stupid squirmeshes to really notice whats going on and they are absolutely right. 

It is a republic- but the majority does not rule, the rich lawyers do that love to line their pockets full of my money and then tell me what to do.

But its OK, as long as I'm infatuated with American Idol and hollywood and nonsense these rich b*stards can get away with anything. 

They do not care about the people they are hired to serve. THEY ONLY CARE ABOUT POWER.

The government does not like being told its wrong.

The government, the rich people-Bush, Kerry, Edwards, Kennedy, Pelosi, Clinton, look they are not poor grass roots people. They went to Yale and Harvard and had tons of money in their pockets before they were born. 

They look down on the people who are struggling. They don't know what it's like to stare a gun down they don't know what its like out in the real world. They live in their own fantasy land in Washington thinking they know what is best for the grassroots. 

The grassroots started this country and one day- someone will come along and reclaim it for the PEOPLE. Not the government who tells us if guns are right or wrong. 

It's not majority rules.

It's whoever has the most amount of cash rules. 

and if you disagree- then name me ONE senator, in the past 15 years to have been a mere farmer as a profession.

and on that note- I'm going to go to work and come back to this.


----------



## Trunkmonkey (Mar 22, 2007)

goodness raerae your mood icon is dead on today.

I'll just say a few things and move back into my trunk.

A) I've pointed a gun at someone with the intent of exerting 2.5 lbs of pressure on the trigger if they did not immediately desist in what they were doing. I wouldn't have had nightmares from that. 

B) You're right we've let a lot of our civil liberties be eroded by a bunch of people we wouldn't allow in our homes but that won't change because enough people in this country live comfortably enough to follow along with the rest of the sheep. Be it gun control or a national id card when is there going to be an issue that's polarizing enough for the people to finally AS A MAJORITY say no more.

C) For all of you ladies that fear the firearm I can certainly empathize however personal safety and the safety of your loved ones is a paramount concer especially considering the number of assaults etc are going up in general. Take some measure to protect yourself even if it's only pepper spray or a coat hanger. Dialing 911 is only going to get someone to come cover your corpse in 20 to 30 minutes. 

D) While the general intended purpose of a firearm is to inflict bodily injury and death to the target the 'target' can also include, paper bulls eyes, clay pigeons, coke bottles, tin cans, old cars, etc.. If you've never tried it you can't understand it most likely but target shooting either with a firearm or a bb gun is FUN. 

E) Personally as a Trunk Monkey I prefer a pipe wrench 

Ciao

Edit: Hawkeye I'd give you some Thank because you're spot on but mine, sadly, does not work.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Hawkeye* 

 
_It's not majority rules.

It's whoever has the most amount of cash rules. 

and if you disagree- then name me ONE senator, in the past 15 years to have been a mere farmer as a profession.

and on that note- I'm going to go to work and come back to this._

 
I'm not diagreeing that cash rules.  Thats obvious.

However, times are changing.  And the ability to advertise yourself and get noticed via the internet is changing the face of politics.

Things like YouTube, Blogs, MySpace, and forums like these are a revolution in the way politics work.  And it's allowing people for nearly nothing, to get noticed in ways that were nearly impossible just a few years ago.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

Dude. Pipe wrenches are fucking AWESOME as weapons. 

Just sayin'.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Trunkmonkey* 

 
_goodness raerae your mood icon is dead on today._

 





This is a mild discussion compared to the stuff Shimmer and I get involved in at times


----------



## Trunkmonkey (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Dude. Pipe wrenches are fucking AWESOME as weapons. 

Just sayin'._

 
I'm sayin.. check me out in my first movie


----------



## Trunkmonkey (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_





This is a mild discussion compared to the stuff Shimmer and I get involved in at times 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 
I know... 

I lurk... 

I've only recently popped the latch

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." --George Washington


----------



## *Stargazer* (Mar 22, 2007)

I love it when trunkmonkey comes out of hiding.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Ladybug10678* 

 
_I love it when trunkmonkey comes out of hiding._

 
Ha me too. two thumbs WAY up.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Trunkmonkey* 

 
_I know... 

I lurk... 

I've only recently popped the latch

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." --George Washington_

 
A true statement, but sadly outdated.  The fact is, if foreign governments can't even protect themselves from the Unites States, civilian militia's have no chance.


----------



## Trunkmonkey (Mar 22, 2007)

whoops duplicate


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_A true statement, but sadly outdated.  The fact is, if foreign governments can't even protect themselves from the Unites States, civilian militia's have no chance._

 
So you like wool, eh?


----------



## Trunkmonkey (Mar 22, 2007)

Trunkmonkey has been a busy monkey lately.  Lots of things needed clubbing.  

That said... 

The freedom to keep and bear arms is a constitutional right that should not be abridged or subverted and I believe I'm of like mind with the framers of our constitution based on the quote from George Washington (above).  You don't have to like firearms, you don't have to own firearms or weapons of any kind if you don't want to, however I do not want your fear of firearms infringing on my RIGHT to own one.


----------



## Trunkmonkey (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_A true statement, but sadly outdated. The fact is, if foreign governments can't even protect themselves from the Unites States, civilian militia's have no chance._

 

RaeRae.. I'm sorry but you're just wrong on this one okay?  I'll agree to disagree with you but I'm not going to argue with you about what my rights were intended to be and should be.  You can give yours up but don't expect me to play along or like it.


----------



## *Stargazer* (Mar 22, 2007)

I don't like guns. At all. That said, we have one and you bet your ass that I know how to use it. It is completely inaccesible to my children and there solely for my protection given how frequently my husband can potentially be gone. 

I never thought I'd be able to use one until I was almost assaulted by a neighbor shortly after I was married. My husband took me to the range the very next day and taught me how to use his 9mm. Now that I have kids, anyone who enters my house uninvited will find themselves with a clip emptied into them. 

Still don't like guns though!


----------



## Raerae (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Trunkmonkey* 

 
_Trunkmonkey has been a busy monkey lately.  Lots of things needed clubbing.  

That said... 

The freedom to keep and bear arms is a constitutional right that should not be abridged or subverted and I believe I'm of like mind with the framers of our constitution based on the quote from George Washington (above).  You don't have to like firearms, you don't have to own firearms or weapons of any kind if you don't want to, however I do not want your fear of firearms infringing on my RIGHT to own one._

 
The political and global climate today is very different from that which exicted when the framers of our constitution put things together.

Just like all written word, it's subject to interpretation.  And with interpretation, you can view the same words in many different lights.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. 

I read that as members of our military/law enforcement (what our militias evolved into) have the right to bear arms to protect the security of the free state.

Not that any John and Jane Doe, can own weapons.  So if you want to bear arms, join the military.  That the right of the people, to bear arms in protection of the state.

Not to bear arms in protection of your neighbor.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_So you like wool, eh?_

 
Having a different opinion doesn't make me blind.  We just value different things.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_The political and global climate today is very different from that which exicted when the framers of our constitution put things together.

Just like all written word, it's subject to interpretation.  And with interpretation, you can view the same words in many different lights.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. 

I read that as members of our military/law enforcement (what our militias evolved into) have the right to bear arms to protect the security of the free state.

Not that any John and Jane Doe, can own weapons.  So if you want to bear arms, join the military.  That the right of the people, to bear arms in protection of the state.

Not to bear arms in protection of your neighbor._

 
"The right of the people" in EVERY SINGLE OTHER AMENDMENT REFERS TO INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS of the American citizen.
Why is that any different in the Second Amendment? Because you're uncomfortable with guns?


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Having a different opinion doesn't make me blind.  We just value different things._

 
Of course. I value my civil liberties, all of them, as well as my rights as a free American.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_"The right of the people" in EVERY SINGLE OTHER AMENDMENT REFERS TO INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS of the American citizen.
Why is that any different in the Second Amendment?_

 
As a citizen, if you want to bear arms, join the military/law inforcement.  How is that hard to understand?

The second amendment refers to the necessity of a militia.  It was put in there because of the fact that the ability of the people to form a militia due to owning guns is part of what allowed the colonies to fight the civil war.

Civilians dont do protect the state anymore.  Thus the need to bear arms to form a militia to protect the state is no longer necessary.  If you feel the need to protect the state, as i said b4, join the military.

This isnt the colonial days where armies/police were not always around, and protecting your town from foreign nationals was necessary.  it's 2007.  And the need for every household to have a weapon is also unnecessary.

Perhaps if your so worried about the ability of the police to arrive on time, you should lobby towards getting a larger police budget, if your so worried about it.  But that would mean higher taxes.

 Quote:

  Because you're uncomfortable with guns?  
 
I never said I was uncomfortable with them.  I just think they are unnecessary, and cause more negatives on society than positives.


----------



## user79 (Mar 22, 2007)

I do think that the American society in general is one that is constantly paraliysed and manipulated with fear - fear or other culture, other countries, terrorism, robbery, your own neighbours, etc. etc. It's a very good way to scare the population and keep people under control, it's an old strategy that's worked for centuries and it's highly effective. I think this is a reason why a lot of Americans feel the need to have guns in the house. It's not so much that their right should be taken away, after all, you can get a gun licence in most western democracies, but people don't make use of it as much here because we don't have that same social fear of our environment.

Noam Chomsky is a person that has discussed America's fear at length, I think his discussions on it are quite interesting. I do think Texans are quite unique in some ways, I met a Texan girl when I was living in Canada, she was friends with my roomate. She was really fun, but I noticed she was really afraid, abnormally so. She couldn't, for example, sleep in her apartment alone if her roomate wasn't at home also. She had like 3 chains put onto the door. And I do think she also had a gun back in Texas.

Now, for Canada, this kind of behaviour is really abnormal. People are not afraid to walk around the streets alone at night, I've done it often. I just couldn't understand why this girl was always so scared...of everything!

But I think it does make sense now. If you're raised in a culture of fear, I don't think that is so easy to get out of the system. And the more you are afraid of others, the more you are liking to be aggressive to strangers, because you think they're all out to harm you. So in a way, if everyone is armed to the teeth and thinking, someone out there is coming to hurt them, I can see why accidental or non-accidental deaths become more common.


Oh and, an interesting fact, Switzerland has a mandatory military time for all Swiss males, and guess where they keep their military rifles? Yep, at home in their closet, or standing behind the door. But I seriously cannot remember the last newstory that appeared where someone was killed from such a rifle.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 22, 2007)

Why should somebody join an instituation if they simply want to own a firearm? That's repulsive. That's just like putting each little number inside yet another box. 

And militias are very important and still in use today. Texas, New Mexico, Arizona- those states that border Mexico...how are they defending themselves against drug trafficers?

If guns are unnecessary- thats fine, you don't have to own one. That's YOUR choice. But do not try to persuade me to change my opinion on my freedoms of choice. My "god given" right that the constitution is talking about. 

And militas they are very important, there is nothing (though it is improbable) that says that one day a mayor will go crazy and invade another state. The U.S. Army can't do anything about it- it violates all state rights unless that particular state asks for help against the crazy state. 

*SIGH* I swear to God. I must be the only person to actually love my freedom and my individuality enough to not take this crap from any party that wants to take away my freedom of choice. 

Sometimes I think we may as well live in Soviet Russia.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_As a citizen, if you want to bear arms, join the military/law inforcement.  How is that hard to understand?

The second amendment refers to the necessity of a militia.  It was put in there because of the fact that the ability of the people to form a militia due to owning guns is part of what allowed the colonies to fight the civil war.

Civilians dont do protect the state anymore.  Thus the need to bear arms to form a militia to protect the state is no longer necessary.  If you feel the need to protect the state, as i said b4, join the military.

This isnt the colonial days where armies/police were not always around, and protecting your town from foreign nationals was necessary.  it's 2007.  And the need for every household to have a weapon is also unnecessary.

Perhaps if your so worried about the ability of the police to arrive on time, you should lobby towards getting a larger police budget, if your so worried about it.  But that would mean higher taxes.


I never said I was uncomfortable with them.  I just think they are unnecessary, and cause more negatives on society than positives._

 
How hard is it to understand that the Second Amendment, just like all the other Amendments, specifically refers to the rights of the people. The "rights of the people" specifically refers to the rights of every individual American citizen, just like it does every single time it's mentioned in the rest of the Constitution.  It's not a case of "Oh, that applies here but not there because well, I just don't like the idea of that applying right there...so we'll just skew the interpretation a little bit because well, most Americans are sheep anyway so they'll never notice."
No, Raerae, I notice. Hawkeye notices. Trunkmonkey notices. People like us notice when someone's trying to pull a double speak piece of bullshit propaganda over our eyes because some fucking moronic asshole decided to shoot someone, innocent or not. Guess what? Golf clubs are fucking perfect, and quite deadly weapons. Used in place of a firearm, I assure you, they can be just as deadly. Let's outlaw golf now.  Tball bats are amazingly adept at causing damage. You ever see someone who got  the shit beat out of them by a tball bat, or a baseball bat, or a golf club? I have, and it ain't fucking pretty. At least a bullet is mostly predictable. Those aren't, and they generally require more than one swing, and in doing so, cause substantially more damage. Say good bye to America's pasttime and Tiger Woods' career. 
It's unrealistic, and it's stupid. You want to hand over your civil liberties? Do so. Please. By all means. But don't fucking hand over mine as well because _you don't have that right._
You DO have the right to walk down the street unmolested, but I also have the right to defend myself in the situation that you decide to attack me, and I will do so, with deadly force if need be. 


And, you're mistakenly laying blame for crime on an inanimate object. A gun does not cause a crime. It has no mind to do so. It is incapable of firing itself (barring mechanical malfunction). 
PEOPLE have brought more negatives than positives, NOT guns. PEOPLE. 
Lets outlaw people too. And males between the age of 18 and 32. They're kind of dangerous.
Oh, and yappy dogs. They bite, so we need to get rid of them.
Shit.
Toddlers bit too....we need to boot them out of the populace. One bite and we need to put the little tyke down. Who knows what violence he's capable of!!


Julia, the female you're talking about is honestly, from any female I know in Texas, an anomaly. That's not to say there aren't people here like that but there are people every where like that. 
As far as mandatory military time, I'm all for that, male or female. Regardless of race, age, color, creed, gender, sexuality, or religion, I believe everyone should wear  the BDUs and serve Uncle SAm for awhile.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 22, 2007)

It's a matter of accountability. 
The GUN is not to blame for a crime. Never has been, and never will be.
The PERSON is to blame for the crime. Place the blame ON THE PERSON with serious enough consequences and stop making excuses about how mommy didn't breastfeed him long enough and daddy didn't take him fishing often enough.


----------



## knoxydoll (Mar 22, 2007)

Wow this discussion has gotten really intense. 

I don't think I'd personally ever own a gun. I do know how and have shot guns before. Which isn't common for girls in my demographic since I live in the suburbs of Canada; but we're farmers on my Mom's side of the family. The reason I'd never own a gun is because I trust myself much more than a weapon. I've been trained in self-defense and I used to box people who were bigger than me, and I work in security and often have to "escort" violent males out of my workspace. I just don't often feel overpowered when I should be feeling that.

Back to the orignal topic of the door thing. When I'm home alone I usually have the alarm on but the doors unlocked when it's still light out. I live in a good part of town and most people don't even know my street exists so I only feel the need to have it locked when it's dark. I usually answer the door when I'm home alone because I'm not scared of who's on the other side and I'm usually holding onto a dog who's barking at the person on the other side of the door. That is a big deturant for people surprisingly. My dog isn't huge and is really friendly and wouldn't probably lick someone to death before he'd attack them. 

However my boyfriend lives in a shady part of town and I don't even like walking around alone outside near his place; I've had people follow me to his house before when I've taken the bus. (It's a house that's been split into four apartments) Thankfully I know that as long as I get close enough to the house someone inside (either one of his roomates, his best friend or the guys in the apartment next to me) will hear me scream if need be. There was a incident in the summer where one of the renovaters came back one day and buzzed my bfs apartment saying he was there to fix the toilet and Jason (Boyfriend's roomates) let him in. He left after a few minutes saying he had to go get some parts, but really went downstairs to another apartment that has three female tenants. He told the girl that there had been a leak upstairs and needed to check her bathroom. She let him in and he cornered her in a room and attempted to rape her. She got away and called the police and the landlord. Needless to say he's not allowed back to the property or within 100 yards. But it's pretty scary because I'm often at my boyfriend's place waiting for him to get home and that could have been me and not the girl. This dude was really shady though and I wasn't even comfortable around him when people were around. He also stole from my boyfriend and his roomates. 

MY advice for people is to trust your instinct if someone seems shady they most likely are. Get them or yourself out of the situation quickly; and if that isn't possible get someone else involved.


----------



## Beauty Mark (Mar 22, 2007)

*MissChievous*- I think there are legitimate fears... I don't walk around late at night by myself. I live in a safe neighborhood, but stuff happens. I'm a very small woman who lives in a city. The roommate thing is odd, but I think some of the things she does were normal and smart.

I've experienced the opposite of you. In college, people would never lock their doors, even at night. I went to a college where people thought it was fine to let anyone into the dorm (we didn't have guards or anything like that), and there were reports of theft frequently. I think some assaults happened as a result of that, but they never made the police blotter. I personally never felt safe, so I locked my door.


As for guns... I think it's all matter of how you perceive the 2nd and its purpose. I think you should be allowed to have a gun, but I think there definitely needs to be tight laws as to who has them.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_It's a matter of accountability. 
The GUN is not to blame for a crime. Never has been, and never will be.
The PERSON is to blame for the crime. Place the blame ON THE PERSON with serious enough consequences and stop making excuses about how mommy didn't breastfeed him long enough and daddy didn't take him fishing often enough._

 
amen.

It annoys the hell outta me when people actually blame an inanimate object that can't think for itself (as you mentioned) on killing people.

How does that happen?

It baffles me. 

Anyone with any form of intelligence knows that an inanimate object cannot just randomly fire for the hell of it. But they want to blame it.

They do it because they don't like to admit that mankind is unpredicatable. They don't like to put blame on mankind. The PERSON made the decision to kill not the gun. Just like with this recent molestation case here in GA. The PERSON (People?) Chose to molest the kid. Not a stick. 

They don't want to hold people responsible. Few people really do. I mean they will make excuses for them all F'in day long. The person had a bad childhood. The person got yelled at. The person had this happen to them.

Excuses. That all it is. 

Nobody- most of these people realize that somewhere- regardless of whatever the hell happened- that at that particular moment the person who pulled the trigger to kill someone (if it is a crime) made a decision. It was a logical decision. They should and must be held accountable for their decision in pulling the trigger.

But instead of doing that- because GOD FORBID we hold somebody accountable in this world. GOD FORBID IT lets outlaw an inanimate object that has no brain, cannot think, cannot make decisions and really is perfectly predictable because if it's laying somewhere it sure as hell isn't going to go off.

Remember- we can't blame the person. That would be insensitve.

*rolls eyes*

It just infuriates me how baffling it is to hear how people want to outlaw guns. 

It really just boils down to nothing more than accountability.

And with accountability is responsibility and what do we know that most governments not want its individuals to have because it takes away the need for big government?

RESPONSIBILITY!

Instead let us be all happy and believe in marshmellowed rainbows and flowers dangling in the air and never think anything bad about anybody because its insensitive and place all our blames on nothing more than inanimate objects that are rather predictable.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_How hard is it to understand that the Second Amendment, just like all the other Amendments, specifically refers to the rights of the people. The "rights of the people" specifically refers to the rights of every individual American citizen, just like it does every single time it's mentioned in the rest of the Constitution.  It's not a case of "Oh, that applies here but not there because well, I just don't like the idea of that applying right there...so we'll just skew the interpretation a little bit because well, most Americans are sheep anyway so they'll never notice."_

 
Yes it states you have the right to own a fire arm for the intent of  having it availible to form a militia to protect the state.

The last time I checked, we haven't needed any militias to ward off invading countries.


 Quote:

  No, Raerae, I notice. Hawkeye notices. Trunkmonkey notices. People like us notice when someone's trying to pull a double speak piece of bullshit propaganda over our eyes because some fucking moronic asshole decided to shoot someone, innocent or not. Guess what? Golf clubs are fucking perfect, and quite deadly weapons. Used in place of a firearm, I assure you, they can be just as deadly. Let's outlaw golf now.  Tball bats are amazingly adept at causing damage. You ever see someone who got  the shit beat out of them by a tball bat, or a baseball bat, or a golf club? I have, and it ain't fucking pretty. At least a bullet is mostly predictable. Those aren't, and they generally require more than one swing, and in doing so, cause substantially more damage. Say good bye to America's pasttime and Tiger Woods' career. 
It's unrealistic, and it's stupid. You want to hand over your civil liberties? Do so. Please. By all means. But don't fucking hand over mine as well because _you don't have that right._
You DO have the right to walk down the street unmolested, but I also have the right to defend myself in the situation that you decide to attack me, and I will do so, with deadly force if need be.  
 
Guns make it signifigantly more difficult to protect yourself from harm, especially in the event that your the person not armed with one.  If someone has a golf club, and is intent on causing sever bodily harm, at least I have a chance to run.  Not to mention I have a much better chance of getting help from someone if i'm not being attacked with a gun.  Most people will not assist anyone if the person causing violence is armed with a fire arm, there is too much chance they will suffer deadly force.  And not everyone has the strength to cause deadly force with a blunt weapon.  Or the stomache to carry it out.  It's a lot harder decision to use deadly force thats upfront and personal, than it is to pull a trigger from the distance where your seperated from most of the violence being inflicted upon another.

I'm sorry you live in a neighborhood where people "beat the shit" out of each other with tball bats.  I really am.


 Quote:

  And, you're mistakenly laying blame for crime on an inanimate object. A gun does not cause a crime. It has no mind to do so. It is incapable of firing itself (barring mechanical malfunction). 
PEOPLE have brought more negatives than positives, NOT guns. PEOPLE. 
Lets outlaw people too. And males between the age of 18 and 32. They're kind of dangerous.
Oh, and yappy dogs. They bite, so we need to get rid of them.
Shit.
Toddlers bit too....we need to boot them out of the populace. One bite and we need to put the little tyke down. Who knows what violence he's capable of!!  
 
You can't compare the ease of deadly force a fire arm gives the user, with that of any other typical weapon, be it a golf club, spork, or chop stick.  Guns enable crimes, like drive by shootings and school massacres, that woulnd't be possible w/out them.




 Quote:

  As far as mandatory military time, I'm all for that, male or female. Regardless of race, age, color, creed, gender, sexuality, or religion, I believe everyone should wear  the BDUs and serve Uncle SAm for awhile.  
 
Spoken like a true military lemming.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

  If someone has a golf club, and is intent on causing sever bodily harm, at least I have a chance to run.  
 
Chances are they would've hit you in the head before you even had a chance to run. Once a person has hit your head or your neck that gives ample time to beat you to death. 


 Quote:

  And not everyone has the strength to cause deadly force with a blunt weapon.  
 
Anyone who can pull a trigger can beat someone up with a blunt object. Again, most people who would do it would aim for the head first and then attack the rest. 

 Quote:

  Most people will not assist anyone if the person causing violence is armed with a fire arm, there is too much chance they will suffer deadly force.  
 
This is probably because the person is screaming help. It is true that if you scream for help people will not want to get involved. Probably because many people scream it and it's not really an emergency. Yell Fire and you got a crowd. 

 Quote:

  You can't compare the ease of deadly force a fire arm gives the user, with that of any other typical weapon, be it a golf club, spork, or chop stick. Guns enable crimes, like drive by shootings and school massacres, that woulnd't be possible w/out them.  
 
Oh yes yes, what about knives? You can easily kill someone with a knife. Same with a rope. You can always break somebodies neck. That's pretty easy too. Same with a car. You wanna kill someone it's easy to run over them with a car. Same with a brick. Throw it at the persons head.

You can easily compare the ease of deadly force. 

Trust me, if somebody wants to kill somebody bad enough then killing someone with any tool is rather easy.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Hawkeye* 

 
_yadda yadda for space_

 


Society is selfish, and people typically want their cake and to eat it too.  You all talk about letting each person be held accountable for their own actions.  But in reality it doesn't work that way.  People impose their views and beliefs on others all the time.  This subject just happens to be a tender one for a few people for once =p


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Yes it states you have the right to own a fire arm for the intent of  having it availible to form a militia to protect the state._

 
 And, if need be, which could very well happen, that's a perfectly valid reason. Though it's certainly not the main reason. Quote:

  The last time I checked, we haven't needed any militias to ward off invading countries.  
 
States can invade other states without federal intervention. The invaded state has to declare a state of emergency before that can happen, and if  hte state's government is dead/out of commission, no one is there to declare the state of emergency.


 Quote:

  Guns make it signifigantly more difficult to protect yourself from harm, especially in the event that your the person not armed with one.  If someone has a golf club, and is intent on causing sever bodily harm, at least I have a chance to run.  Not to mention I have a much better chance of getting help from someone if i'm not being attacked with a gun.  Most people will not assist anyone if the person causing violence is armed with a fire arm, there is too much chance they will suffer deadly force.  And not everyone has the strength to cause deadly force with a blunt weapon.  Or the stomache to carry it out.  It's a lot harder decision to use deadly force thats upfront and personal, than it is to pull a trigger from the distance where your seperated from most of the violence being inflicted upon another.  
 
Darlin', by the time you're close enough to someone to realize that they're going to use the golfclub/bat/whatever to harm you, you're already too close. You can't run as quickly as you think, particularly when the attacker's reach is extended by 2 to 4 feet. 
Most people will not assist anyone who's being attacked or beaten, sorry that's just the way the world works now. 
Don't create your own constitution (mental, physical, whatever) as the constitution for the rest of the world, particularly when it's been proven time and again by simple acts of human savagery that your argument is wholly inaccurate. If someone has the balls and the intention to kill you using a firearm, they have the balls and the intention to kill you using other methods. That's just human nature.  
You're flip flopping your story here, because on one hand you're saying that most firearms owners are killed with their own weapon when an intruder over powers them, then on the other, when that didn't seem to get your desired result, you're saying that firearms offer a measure of impersonality because they offer the ability to kill from such long range. Which is it? You can't argue it both ways, both arguments are flawed, really. If someone wants to do you harm, I can assure you that they're going to do it, whether they use a knife, a gun, a bat, a sap, a club, or a nine iron. It's pure and simple fact. If s/he wants to hurt you, s/he's not necessarily too particular about the weapon, except that firearms require the least amount of effort, and offer the most intimidation factor.
 Quote:

  I'm sorry you live in a neighborhood where people "beat the shit" out of each other with tball bats.  I really am.  
 
 Actually, if you were paying attention, you'd note that I stated, repeatedly, that I live in a little white bread suburban neighborhood with kids on bikes and privacy fences and pools and little old men who yammer over fences and dogs playing fences in yards. I've never once stated that I lived in a dangerous neighborhood, or anything close to that type of situation. Keep up.


 Quote:

  You can't compare the ease of deadly force a fire arm gives the user, with that of any other typical weapon, be it a golf club, spork, or chop stick.  Guns enable crimes, like drive by shootings and school massacres, that woulnd't be possible w/out them.  
 
A) You've obviously never seen the damage a golf club does, with really, minimal effort.
B) School massacres? Psh. Bombs baby. Not hard to make, relatively easy to conceal, and a whole lot messier than firearms. Just not as intimidating.
C) It wouldn't be possible to do a lot of things without a lot of other things. What's your point? 
Bad things are going to happen whether you like it or not. Deal with it. 



 Quote:

 
Spoken like a true military lemming.  
 
Spoken like someone who truly doesn't know what she's talking about so instead finds pundits to quote and propaganda to spout in order to try to substantiate an argument that could only be described as weak on its best day. 
You know nothing of my time in service, you know nothing of what it's like to be a soldier, you know nothing of what it's like to pledge to lay your life on the line for ungrateful, ill informed, closed eyed, closed minded, irresponsible, ingrates like yourself only so they can continue to spit upon the very things you're pledging to fight for and defend.
Until you do, I suggest you stick to subjects that only mildly make you appear ignorant, and stay away from the ones that confirm it without a doubt.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Society is selfish, and people typically want their cake and to eat it too.  You all talk about letting each person be held accountable for their own actions.  But in reality it doesn't work that way.  People impose their views and beliefs on others all the time.  This subject just happens to be a tender one for a few people for once =p_

 
So what exactly do you feel accountable for? Nothing, quite obviously, because you want someone else to think for you, make your mind up, make the hard decisions for you, except of course when it comes to abortion. You definitely don't want someone telling you you can't make that choice, though when you do it's wholly so you, again, aren't accountable for your actions.


Interesting.q


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 23, 2007)

I don't recall writing yadda yadda yadda for space so I would highly appreciate it if you would refrain from replacing my words. You are much better than doing such a childish act raerae.

Now your right that society won't work that way because they refuse to be that way. They are nothing more than sheep. Easily molded to do whatever it is that they want and then having the blame put on an inanimate object or somebody else. 

And people can impose whatever they believe as long as they don't drag the federal/State/local government into. And this is exactly what people are doing with guns. They are basically doing nothing more than crying to big brother that they don't like thinking and someone is walking around with a gun and it scares them a lot and they don't want to see it because it scares them so can't the big brother please take care of it for them?

You can tell me until your blue in the face that you hate guns and thats fine. I'm not going to go and join a movement to have the federal government stop you from doing so. But these people who don't like guns- they are trying to make the federal government stop those of us who like guns. Therefore trying to take away the freedom. 

That's why it is such a big issue.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Hawkeye* 

 
_Trust me, if somebody wants to kill somebody bad enough then killing someone with any tool is rather easy._

 
Ranged firearms make it easier though.  Not to mention make the killing or large groups of people quicker and more efficient than by hand.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 23, 2007)

Everyone knows guns are not the most efficent for that raerae, bombs are.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Bombs are cheaper to make too. And, when done properly, virtually untraceable.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Hawkeye* 

 
_I don't recall writing yadda yadda yadda for space so I would highly appreciate it if you would refrain from replacing my words. You are much better than doing such a childish act raerae._

 
There is a point where taking up the entire thread with a quoted post gets a little redundant, but I needed to be clear I was responding to you.

Dont hate on Seignfeld.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Spoken like someone who truly doesn't know what she's talking about so instead finds pundits to quote and propaganda to spout in order to try to substantiate an argument that could only be described as weak on its best day._

 
Oh, i'm sorry we dont agree that needing guns is a necessary force.  The fact of the matter is, gun control woulnd't even be an issue if people using firearms were doing so in a responsible way.  It's the irresponsible use that causing more and more people to get fed up with fire arms and the careless deaths the cause to innocent victims not even involved in the situation.


 Quote:

  You know nothing of my time in service, you know nothing of what it's like to be a soldier, you know nothing of what it's like to pledge to lay your life on the line for ungrateful, ill informed, closed eyed, closed minded, irresponsible, ingrates like yourself only so they can continue to spit upon the very things you're pledging to fight for and defend.
Until you do, I suggest you stick to subjects that only mildly make you appear ignorant, and stay away from the ones that confirm it without a doubt.  
 
Any instituation that brainwashes it's members to follow commands w/out question, regardless of their morality, deserves criticism.


----------



## glamdoll (Mar 23, 2007)

Personally I dont like guns. Not because I fear the GUN its self but the intentions of the PERSON behind the gun. The gun its self wont hurt you, just like the rope wont hurt you, and the knife wont hurt you BY ITSELF. Once picked up by an individual thats when it becomes a deadly weapon.

Though its not likely that our government will have another civil war,
there be no need too. They already are powerful, and each right that we do have we should defend. 

Have you guys seen V for Vendetta?
Though its an extreme situtiation reality is, that its not an impossible one. and no matter how well armed our army is, we the people out number the army. Why do you think they want to draft? 
not enough people in the militia.

and here in the US we have been very lucky not to have a war at home, the closest we have had was the Pearl harbor. 
If that was to happen Id like to know i have the right, and the weapon to defend myself.

I have a son and trust me, I do NOT know a limit in my mind that I would not cross to protect his life. I dont know if its only us moms that feel like that, but honestly if it comes down to it, if someone threatens my safety and that of my family you bet ill be puttin donut holes if i have to into some ppl.

Raerae you do have valid points, but reality is that we have the right to defend ourselves. Whether its from the militia, another country or the person right next to us. People cannot be trusted its just as simple as that.


----------



## glamdoll (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Any instituation that brainwashes it's members to follow commands w/out question, regardless of their morality, deserves criticism._

 
but u see those people who have been "brainwashed" are fighting
w/ guns ur FREEDOM to say that about them, and their establishment.


----------



## Beauty Mark (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

  The fact of the matter is, gun control woulnd't even be an issue if people using firearms were doing so in a responsible way. It's the irresponsible use that causing more and more people to get fed up with fire arms and the careless deaths the cause to innocent victims not even involved in the situation.  
 
Would you be opposed to a license like a driver's license, where one would have to undergo training and testing in order to have a gun?

Even though it's potentially offensive to others, I think it's important that we question establishments and practices. It's just the matter of how one does it. I think the armed forces does some good and some bad personally. I don't believe that the army brainwashes everyone, because God knows I've known my share of folks who walk away from service thinking it's a corrupt institution.

To lighten the mood slightly but keep on topic, remember the episode of The Simpsons where Homer bought a gun and became an incredibly irresponsible gun owner? I think he even open food with his gun or something like that. Then he uses the gun to save Apu or someone like that at a robbery.

There was also the Halloween episode where Lisa made it her mission to rid the world of guns and zombie gun nuts took over because the Springfield residents couldn't protect themselves.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Oh, i'm sorry we dont agree that needing guns is a necessary force.  The fact of the matter is, gun control woulnd't even be an issue if people using firearms were doing so in a responsible way.  It's the irresponsible use that causing more and more people to get fed up with fire arms and the careless deaths the cause to innocent victims not even involved in the situation.
Any instituation that brainwashes it's members to follow commands w/out question, regardless of their morality, deserves criticism._

 
Stop trying to legislate responsibility. That's not going to do anything. 
Legislation simply removes personal responsibility. 
Try educating instead of legislating. Teach people, indoctrinate as to why it's a bad idea to shoot someone.
Teach the value of human life.
Simply legislating weapons doesn't fix the problem. Legislating doesn't change the fact that children are being taught blatant disregard for human life. Legislation doesn't change the fact that no one feels personal responsibility for their actions.
Legislation isn't the answer, a change at the core of the home is necessary. THAT is what will make innocents safe.

And, like I said, you're revealing your ignorance. You have no idea why or or what within the military. Educate yourself, until you do, stop talking about things you know nothing about.
A government who will rule their people by fear and oppression has no qualms with ruling and commanding its soldiers by fear and oppression.


----------



## geeko (Mar 23, 2007)

Basically in my country we are not to allowed to own any firearms, if we are found out to be in possession of one, we will be jailed for a long long time. And as mentioned before, a person in possession of a gun who fires a live shot will be sentenced to death, even if its out of his/her protection, because in the first place we are not allowed to have guns, and firing a live shot endangers the lives of others

Anyway, my country has a lot of death penalties...death penalty for drug trafficking (more than 15g = drug trafficking = sentence to death by hanging) etc.

but i think the gun law helps to make my country a safer place..at least potential criminals can't get their hands easily on a gun (those that do rob the banks and not homes.as they are taking a big risk by owning a gun, why risk it on robbin a home with not much $$ inside?)...

oh ya i forget to add...my government does not allow freedom of speech on politics. :x and in fact they will rebut anyone who dares to criticize their policies. and the only national newspaper we have is also very pro government. We have opposition parties, but there are too few in the parliament to provide a check and balance on the government. So yeah...everything is ruled by legislation in my country.

We only can say yes to the legislation but not nay.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

unfathomable to me.


----------



## geeko (Mar 23, 2007)

beats me either. Ask my government.

but at least i can walk in the streets safely knowing that the chance of me getting shot dead by a gun is very slim...

only the police are allowed to have guns and they have the authority to fire a live shot if the situation deems it to be so.

i think the main problem is the intent to do evil. 

If the person is intent on doing evil, whether it is gun, knife, or baseball bat etc....you can't deter him from doing so.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

I can walk in the streets safely knowing the chance of getting shot is very slim. 
I can grocery shop, go clubbing, and even yell in my front yard at my husband's ex wife, and I'm not worried about getting shot. To be honest, the ONLY time I worry about getting shot is when I  venture into a neighborhood that's kind of skeevy. I avoid the neighborhoods like that and I'm perfectly fine.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 23, 2007)

Nobody is hating on seinfeild raerae- here is a brilliant thought- and I know this is impossible to fathom-- why not put my name in the post instead of changing my words because my redundant response is the exact same as YOUR redundant response? 

*GASP*

Oh dear God what a novel idea.

SOMEBODY! I hit on something brilliant, CALL THE MEDIA! Call the copyright people- I have to copyright this brilliant idea before somebody takes it!


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 23, 2007)

makeupnewbie you hit the nail on the head. with this quote:
 Quote:

  i think the main problem is the intent to do evil. 

If the person is intent on doing evil, whether it is gun, knife, or baseball bat etc....you can't deter him from doing so.  
 
I don't agree with your government doing that but that's ok. I do agree with you on the quote because it is very very true.


----------



## Beauty Mark (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_I can walk in the streets safely knowing the chance of getting shot is very slim. 
I can grocery shop, go clubbing, and even yell in my front yard at my husband's ex wife, and I'm not worried about getting shot. To be honest, the ONLY time I worry about getting shot is when I  venture into a neighborhood that's kind of skeevy. I avoid the neighborhoods like that and I'm perfectly fine. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 
Actually, in the more dangerous areas, I'm worried about being attacked period. Gun, bat, knife, just physically grabbing me...

We just don't live in a safe world, and I'm not really convinced that banning guns is necessarily the answer.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

beauty_mark, good point.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *glamdoll* 

 
_but u see those people who have been "brainwashed" are fighting
w/ guns ur FREEDOM to say that about them, and their establishment._

 
Go overseas and see how the average person views our country because of the wannabe imperialism foreign policy we've been engaging in.  And realistically, the freedom of average Joe America has never been in question, not in a long time.  An invasion of America in the modern world would be near impossible for any of the countries we have invaded in the last 50 years.  And the countries that *might* have the capabiity, we are too busy funneling our economy into because we want cheap Walmart prices.  While blindly looking the other way as their military budget and technology are increasing at record levels every year.

The fact is, if the members of our military are so morally lacking that they would fire on their own citizens without question because they were, "following orders."  Then the citizens of our country have a right to question the institution, and it's policies.  There is more to honor than following orders without question.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Hawkeye* 

 
_Nobody is hating on seinfeild raerae- here is a brilliant thought- and I know this is impossible to fathom-- why not put my name in the post instead of changing my words because my redundant response is the exact same as YOUR redundant response? 

*GASP*

Oh dear God what a novel idea.

SOMEBODY! I hit on something brilliant, CALL THE MEDIA! Call the copyright people- I have to copyright this brilliant idea before somebody takes it!_

 
I think your getting overly sensitive over nothing.  Yadda.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Stop trying to legislate responsibility. That's not going to do anything. 
Legislation simply removes personal responsibility. 
Try educating instead of legislating. Teach people, indoctrinate as to why it's a bad idea to shoot someone.
Teach the value of human life.
Simply legislating weapons doesn't fix the problem. Legislating doesn't change the fact that children are being taught blatant disregard for human life. Legislation doesn't change the fact that no one feels personal responsibility for their actions.
Legislation isn't the answer, a change at the core of the home is necessary. THAT is what will make innocents safe.

And, like I said, you're revealing your ignorance. You have no idea why or or what within the military. Educate yourself, until you do, stop talking about things you know nothing about.
A government who will rule their people by fear and oppression has no qualms with ruling and commanding its soldiers by fear and oppression._

 
You dont want to pay higher taxes to educate people.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_You dont want to pay higher taxes to educate people._

 
Incorrect.
I dont' want to pay higher taxes for useless pork stuffed bills to go through legislation.

I want John and Betsy Doe down the street to raise their kid. I want our kids to be taught personal accountability.
That kind of education, my dear, is free.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Beauty Mark* 

 
_Would you be opposed to a license like a driver's license, where one would have to undergo training and testing in order to have a gun?

Even though it's potentially offensive to others, I think it's important that we question establishments and practices. It's just the matter of how one does it. I think the armed forces does some good and some bad personally. I don't believe that the army brainwashes everyone, because God knows I've known my share of folks who walk away from service thinking it's a corrupt institution._

 
I think that something needs to be changes about current gun laws.  Background checks are not enough.  The fact of the matter is, had the weapon technology we have today, been around when the framers put together the constitution, the wording of the 2nd amendment would not be so open.

Tell yah what Shimmer.  You can have the types of guns that were availible during the colonial period, and I wont have a problem with it.  You know, single shot, hand loaded rifles and handguns.  I have absoluteley no problem with people having that type of fire arm.

As technology changes, the laws that govern the availibility, accessability, and use of such technology needs to be updated to stay current.  The 2nd amendment isn't a greenlight to have any type of firearm, regardless of lethality, just because limitations for technologies not yet invented were not included in the wording.  

And yes, I think testing/training/liscenseing is a good start.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Incorrect.
I dont' want to pay higher taxes for useless pork stuffed bills to go through legislation._

 
Considering how often incumbent canidates are re-elected, people seem to like pork.

 Quote:

  I want John and Betsy Doe down the street to raise their kid. I want our kids to be taught personal accountability.
That kind of education, my dear, is free.  
 
Personal accountability doesn't get you accepted into college and give you the chance to raise you standard of living.  When schools dont have the money to pay for books for every student, or the funding availible to hire enough teachers, or the ability to use newer technology to help student have a better chance at success, there is a problem.

You can argue all you want, but our nation would be much better off spending the budget thats allocated on fighting pointless wars, on domestic policies.  The billions spent on Afghanistan and Iraq could have gone a long way to righting a lot of the wrongs still going on in our own country.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_I think that something needs to be changes about current gun laws.  Background checks are not enough.  The fact of the matter is, had the weapon technology we have today, been around when the framers put together the constitution, the wording of the 2nd amendment would not be so open.

Tell yah what Shimmer.  You can have the types of guns that were availible during the colonial period, and I wont have a problem with it.  You know, single shot, hand loaded rifles and handguns.  I have absoluteley no problem with people having that type of fire arm.

As technology changes, the laws that govern the availibility, accessability, and use of such technology needs to be updated to stay current.  The 2nd amendment isn't a greenlight to have any type of firearm, regardless of lethality, just because limitations for technologies not yet invented were not included in the wording.  

And yes, I think testing/training/liscenseing is a good start._

 
I didn't say the 2nd Amendment was the greenlight for any kind of firearm anytime. That's foolish. No civilian needs an assault rifle, though they are fun to shoot. 
That said, you need to get your opinion straight, and stop flip flopping. First it was GUNS R BAD!!!!!111eleventy!
Now it's welllll I guess THESE kinds of guns are okay, but not those cuz those kind are too skurry. 

And the Constitution was _deliberately_ worded the way it was worded specifically with an eye to the future.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_I didn't say the 2nd Amendment was the greenlight for any kind of firearm anytime. That's foolish. No civilian needs an assault rifle, though they are fun to shoot. 
That said, you need to get your opinion straight, and stop flip flopping. First it was GUNS R BAD!!!!!111eleventy!
Now it's welllll I guess THESE kinds of guns are okay, but not those cuz those kind are too skurry. 

And the Constitution was deliberately worded the way it was worded specifically with an eye to the future._

 
It's a fluid conversation shimmer.

Keep up.

Were not talking about the same points as a few pages back.

Not to mention I'm allowed to change and edit my position as new points and arguments are brought to the table.  Unlike yourself, i'm flexible in my opinion when good valid points are brought up.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Considering how often incumbent canidates are re-elected, people seem to like pork._

 
 That's hardly a result of people's inviolate opinion, and more due to the lack of options due to the incredible cost of campaigning. 

 Quote:

 
Personal accountability doesn't get you accepted into college and give you the chance to raise you standard of living.  When schools dont have the money to pay for books for every student, or the funding availible to hire enough teachers, or the ability to use newer technology to help student have a better chance at success, there is a problem.  
 
The hell it doesn't! You want to go to school? You're responsible for making your grades, buying your books, and getting your education. NOT anyone else. YOU are. YOU want those things, YOU are responsible for WORKING FOR THEM. Don't sit there and play the victim and say "ohhh life's so hard it's not  fair" because you know what? No one on this planet owes you a damn thing. You want something? Get off your pretty little ass and EARN IT. Stop expecting hand  outs, stop expecting legs up. Stop expecting anything from anyone, and make your own way. Stop abdicating your own personal responsibility. 
 Quote:

  You can argue all you want, but our nation would be much better off spending the budget thats allocated on fighting pointless wars, on domestic policies.  The billions spent on Afghanistan and Iraq could have gone a long way to righting a lot of the wrongs still going on in our own country.  
 
And all those years we weren't "fighting pointless wars" that money sure did do a LOT for this country didn't it? I mean, good golly, Reagan wasn't embroiled in an active war, neither was Bush, Sr. (The Persian Gulf war was over much faster than this one.), and Clinton, no, he wasn't actively engaged in combat either, so there *should* have been TRILLIONS of dollars spent, by your argument, to better the nation. _But they weren't and they won't be._
People in power want to remain in power. People like you are their dream constituent. Follow the trends, do what the MSM tells you to do, support the latest "cause du jour" and shut up and don't  question anything.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_It's a fluid conversation shimmer.

Keep up.

Were not talking about the same points as a few pages back.

Not to mention I'm allowed to change and edit my position as new points and arguments are brought to the table.  Unlike yourself, i'm flexible in my opinion when good valid points are brought up._

 
Of course it's a fluid conversation, but you're not changing your perspective when good points are brought up, you're changing your perspective so you look less ignorant to the unnamed masses who are lurking reading this thread right now.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_That's hardly a result of people's inviolate opinion, and more due to the lack of options due to the incredible cost of campaigning._

 
Times are changing.  While campaigning is still expensive, it's becommnig less expensive as "traditional" forms of advertising, like TV, paper, etc, are being replaced by free media on-line.  As the availibility of the internet increases, i fully expect to see a change in the way politics and campaigning is done.


 Quote:

  The hell it doesn't! You want to go to school? You're responsible for making your grades, buying your books, and getting your education. NOT anyone else. YOU are. YOU want those things, YOU are responsible for WORKING FOR THEM.  
 
Sweetie, public gradeschool children dont buy their own books.  It's the government's job to provide an education to the public while they attend public school.  That includes books, computers, access to current events through things like TV's being availible in every classrooms.  Not to mention having a large enough facility to have classrooms that aren't understaffed and over crowded.  And also having the reasources availible to build new facilities to accomodate a growing population.  That also includes having a budget that allows for hiring of more teachers and assistant staff to ensure that children in a classroom get the proper attention that they deserve, and aren't neglected because of overcrowding in the school systems.

 Quote:

  Don't sit there and play the victim and say "ohhh life's so hard it's not  fair" because you know what? No one on this planet owes you a damn thing. You want something? Get off your pretty little ass and EARN IT. Stop expecting hand  outs, stop expecting legs up. Stop expecting anything from anyone, and make your own way. Stop abdicating your own personal responsibility.  
 
Again, typical ignorant Shimmer response.  What was that about wool?  If you think the education were providing to children these days is a good one, you really need to go back to school.  Because the reality of the matter is, were doing our children these days a severe disservice, and putting the future (our children are our future) at risk.

 Quote:

  And all those years we weren't "fighting pointless wars" that money sure did do a LOT for this country didn't it? I mean, good golly, Reagan wasn't embroiled in an active war, neither was Bush, Sr. (The Persian Gulf war was over much faster than this one.), and Clinton, no, he wasn't actively engaged in combat either, so there *should* have been TRILLIONS of dollars spent, by your argument, to better the nation. _But they weren't and they won't be._
People in power want to remain in power. People like you are their dream constituent. Follow the trends, do what the MSM tells you to do, support the latest "cause du jour" and shut up and don't  question anything.  
 
Argue all you want.  Our military budget could have been invested in much better ways than wasting America's time, and lives.  And the past is what lays the foundation of the future.  Had better decisions been made by former presidents, a lot of the mess were in today could have been avoided.  The whole fiasco that is the Middle East is just the fruits of our labors during the cold war.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Of course it's a fluid conversation, but you're not changing your perspective when good points are brought up, you're changing your perspective so you look less ignorant to the unnamed masses who are lurking reading this thread right now._

 
Actually I changed my position based on what Hawkeye said.  Because unlike yourself, she has good points.  You just repeat the same "what if" arguments over and over.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_I think your getting overly sensitive over nothing. Yadda._

 
Overly sensitive? Nope. I Just don't like having something put where I said something when in fact I never said it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





It's just one of those things.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Hawkeye* 

 
_Overly sensitive? Nope. I Just don't like having something put where I said something when in fact I never said it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




It's just one of those things. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 
I think your average Specktra reader knew the intent.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 23, 2007)

It's more the principle of the matter more than anything.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Times are changing.  While campaigning is still expensive, it's becommnig less expensive as "traditional" forms of advertising, like TV, paper, etc, are being replaced by free media on-line.  As the availibility of the internet increases, i fully expect to see a change in the way politics and campaigning is done._

 
Sure.
 Quote:

  Sweetie, public gradeschool children dont buy their own books.  It's the government's job to provide an education to the public while they attend public school.  That includes books, computers, access to current events through things like TV's being availible in every classrooms.  Not to mention having a large enough facility to have classrooms that aren't understaffed and over crowded.  And also having the reasources availible to build new facilities to accomodate a growing population.  That also includes having a budget that allows for hiring of more teachers and assistant staff to ensure that children in a classroom get the proper attention that they deserve, and aren't neglected because of overcrowding in the school systems.

 
Public school children are taught, their parents are responsible for pursuing their educational benefit.  Parents take a lassez faire approach to education, putting the responsibility on the school system for it, instead of making sure the kids are actually learning.
You don't need tvs in the classrooms to learn. You don't need gadgets and whizbang materials. You need kids to value education, which is something they're not taught.
 Quote:

  Again, typical ignorant Shimmer response.  What was that about wool?  If you think the education were providing to children these days is a good one, you really need to go back to school.  Because the reality of the matter is, were doing our children these days a severe disservice, and putting the future (our children are our future) at risk.

 
LOL riiiiight. I'm not saying our kids are getting perfect educations, but I am saying, and will continue to say, the kids aren't being taught the value of the education they're receiving. 
You're a prime example. How many times on this board do you mistake "your/you're", "we're/were", "there/their/they're" and "definitely/definately"? We won't even mention the number of fragmented sentences, your poor syntax, and disregard for grammatical rules.
When these things are pointed out to you, your response is "OH its just the internet, noone cares about that neway."
Value your education. 
 Quote:

  Argue all you want.  Our military budget could have been invested in much better ways than wasting America's time, and lives.  And the past is what lays the foundation of the future.  Had better decisions been made by former presidents, a lot of the mess were in today could have been avoided.  The whole fiasco that is the Middle East is just the fruits of our labors during the cold war.  
 
Yes, weakening our military is the PERFECT solution. Way to go.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Actually I changed my position based on what Hawkeye said.  Because unlike yourself, she has good points.  You just repeat the same "what if" arguments over and over._

 
No you didn't. You changed your position because your original stance was crumbling.


----------



## sharyn (Mar 23, 2007)

Opening doors is dangerous bussines these days. Everyone knows you shouldnt let strangers in, but one day a former good friend of mine was at the door and since I hadnt seen him in like, 6 months of course I let him in when he said he just wanted to come by and say hi. well, while talking to he droped the sentence "oh, yeah, I spend some time in a nuthouse... they like locked my into this house for like, no reason... can you imagine that? good I am so happy I could escape... but the cops are still after me."

I was like... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  then told him I wanted to smoke a cigarette and for that, we need to get out of the house and sit down in the garden. soon as he was out of the door, I shut it and called the police. so yeah, I dont ever answer the door when I am home alone and if my friends want to come over, they call me when they're at the door.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Sure.

Public school children are taught, their parents are responsible for pursuing their educational benefit.  Parents take a lassez faire approach to education, putting the responsibility on the school system for it, instead of making sure the kids are actually learning._

 
It's kinda hard for parents, who were given the same McEducation to teach their children, when they themselves are lacking education.  The blind can't lead the blind Shimmer.  Public school children are not getting a proper education when they are crammed 40-50 students into a classroom with 1 teacher.  Who is going to help them learn when their parents dont understand the subjects they are being taught.  There is a reason "Are you Smarter Than a 5th Grader" is such a funny show.  But it clearly shows the education gap in this country.  If the parents aren't educated on the subjects they are being taught, and the teachers dont have time to properly address the questions in their classrooms (it's a known fact the more students in a classroom you have, the more intimidating it is for a child to raise their hand to ask for help), how are they supposed to learn?  Pretending it isn't a problem is not the answer. blaming uneducated parents for not helping their students isn't an answer.

 Quote:

  You don't need tvs in the classrooms to learn. You don't need gadgets and whizbang materials. You need kids to value education, which is something they're not taught.  
 

It's also a fairly common fact that schools that have the money to take advantage of new technology, have a higher success rate of getting through to students.  It's pretty ignorant to say, "screw technology, lets do it the old fashioned way."  Your sounding like my Grandpa now, talking about "back in the day."  We are not going to stay a superpower by ignoring technology and the ositive impact it can have on the classroom.  You teach kids to value education by getting them interested in learning.  Using out dated techniques that dont speak the same language as today's generation is not the answer.



 Quote:

  LOL riiiiight. I'm not saying our kids are getting perfect educations, but I am saying, and will continue to say, the kids aren't being taught the value of the education they're receiving. 
You're a prime example. How many times on this board do you mistake "your/you're", "we're/were", "there/their/they're" and "definitely/definately"? We won't even mention the number of fragmented sentences, your poor syntax, and disregard for grammatical rules.
When these things are pointed out to you, your response is "OH its just the internet, noone cares about that neway."
Value your education.  
 
Kids need to have parents that value the value of education.  But when their parents never got a proper education, and their parents didn't have a proper education, it's up to the public schools to break the cycle.  This is one topic I thought it would be a pretty much no brainer when it comes to agreeing.  But you still find a way to argue against making positive changes to society.  

And I will take the time to correct my spelling and grammar when it matters.  Personally I dont find the 1-2 minutes i spend giving you a response worth taking another few minutes to spell/grammar check.  When as soon as I finish this, I need to get back to do other pressing things.  Unlike yourself, I'm not a stay home mom with hours to spend on-line killing time while the kids play Wii in the living room.  I value my education when it matters.  It matters when money is involved.  As i'm not being paid to present an argument, or being given a grade on making sure my thesis is perfect, i'm not in any hurry to re-read my post for the grammar nazi's.

 Quote:

  Yes, weakening our military is the PERFECT solution. Way to go.  
 
But we dont need a military Shimmer.  Since you have a gun, you can just form a militia if we ever need protection.


----------



## Beauty Mark (Mar 23, 2007)

Oh man, that's scary. Did the police catch him?


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_No you didn't. You changed your position because your original stance was crumbling._

 
Crumbling to who?  You? lol.  Hardly.  You make it sound like changing an opinion based on the persuasions of others is a bad thing.  No wonder your threads typically dont ever go anywhere beyond, "agree to disagree."


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_It's kinda hard for parents, who were given the same McEducation to teach their children, when they themselves are lacking education.  The blind can't lead the blind Shimmer.  Public school children are not getting a proper education when they are crammed 40-50 students into a classroom with 1 teacher.  Who is going to help them learn when their parents dont understand the subjects they are being taught.  There is a reason "Are you Smarter Than a 5th Grader" is such a funny show.  But it clearly shows the education gap in this country.  If the parents aren't educated on the subjects they are being taught, and the teachers dont have time to properly address the questions in their classrooms (it's a known fact the more students in a classroom you have, the more intimidating it is for a child to raise their hand to ask for help), how are they supposed to learn?  Pretending it isn't a problem is not the answer. blaming uneducated parents for not helping their students isn't an answer.
_

 
Yeah, blaming those parents IS the answer, because those parents are adults who have the free will and capability to DO something about it and instead they choose not to. 

 Quote:

 

It's also a fairly common fact that schools that have the money to take advantage of new technology, have a higher success rate of getting through to students.  It's pretty ignorant to say, "screw technology, lets do it the old fashioned way."  Your sounding like my Grandpa now, talking about "back in the day."  We are not going to stay a superpower by ignoring technology and the ositive impact it can have on the classroom.  You teach kids to value education by getting them interested in learning.  Using out dated techniques that dont speak the same language as today's generation is not the answer.

 
Absolutely, however instead of sitting and wailing about what isn't there, take advantage of what IS there and make the most of what you have. That's the way of the world. I never said "take back to back in the day" but I did and will say that while those accoutrements are nice, they're NOT necessary.

 Quote:

  Kids need to have parents that value the value of education.  But when their parents never got a proper education, and their parents didn't have a proper education, it's up to the public schools to break the cycle.  This is one topic I thought it would be a pretty much no brainer when it comes to agreeing.  But you still find a way to argue against making positive changes to society.    
 
I'm not arguing against making positive changes in society. I'm arguing against not taking action individually for the individual's shortcomings. It's YOUR responsibility to educate yourself. No one else's. 
 Quote:

  And I will take the time to correct my spelling and grammar when it matters.  Personally I dont find the 1-2 minutes i spend giving you a response worth taking another few minutes to spell/grammar check.  When as soon as I finish this, I need to get back to do other pressing things.  Unlike yourself, I'm not a stay home mom with hours to spend on-line killing time while the kids play Wii in the living room.  I value my education when it matters.  It matters when money is involved.  As i'm not being paid to present an argument, or being given a grade on making sure my thesis is perfect, i'm not in any hurry to re-read my post for the grammar nazi's.  
 
Like I said, that's your argument. Its just teh internet, it dont matter neway. 
And, regarding your commentary on my SAHM status, or what my children do in their spare time, again, your ignorance is showing. You haven't the first idea what goes on within my home, and you haven't the first idea what my parenting philosophies are. Again, you've shouted not only your ignorance but your insensitivity from the rooftops. Congratulations. 

 Quote:

  But we dont need a military Shimmer.  Since you have a gun, you can just form a militia if we ever need protection.  
 
Sure thing.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Crumbling to who?  You? lol.  Hardly.  You make it sound like changing an opinion based on the persuasions of others is a bad thing.  No wonder your threads typically dont ever go anywhere beyond, "agree to disagree."_

 
You never conceded that anyone had made a valid point. You simply changed your argument.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 23, 2007)

Sharyn: ROFLMAO!


----------



## sharyn (Mar 23, 2007)

Well, he was stoned out of his mind AND drunk. So when I told him I just shut the door cause I had to go to the bathroom real quick and I'd be with him in a second, I guess he believed it and waited in my garden.  he didnt hear them coming because he was to stoned/drunk to sit upright... so yes, they took him back to that mental home.
it scared the s*** out of me and slept with a light on for a couple of weeks. seeing your best friend with blood shot eyes, talking about what its like in a nuthouse and saying _I escaped but they're after me... _not fun at all.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_You never conceded that anyone had made a valid point. You simply changed your argument._

 
The tone of my position changed based on the arguments brought fourth by others.  I dont need to pass out gold stars to people.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *sharyn* 

 
_Well, he was stoned out of his mind AND drunk. So when I told him I just shut the door cause I had to go to the bathroom real quick and I'd be with him in a second, I guess he believed it and waited in my garden.  he didnt hear them coming because he was to stoned/drunk to sit upright... so yes, they took him back to that mental home.
it scared the s*** out of me and slept with a light on for a couple of weeks. seeing your best friend with blood shot eyes, talking about what its like in a nuthouse and saying I escaped but they're after me... not fun at all._

 
That's seriously out there.


----------



## glamdoll (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Go overseas and see how the average person views our country because of the wannabe imperialism foreign policy we've been engaging in. And realistically, the freedom of average Joe America has never been in question, not in a long time. An invasion of America in the modern world would be near impossible for any of the countries we have invaded in the last 50 years. And the countries that *might* have the capabiity, we are too busy funneling our economy into because we want cheap Walmart prices. While blindly looking the other way as their military budget and technology are increasing at record levels every year.

The fact is, if the members of our military are so morally lacking that they would fire on their own citizens without question because they were, "following orders." Then the citizens of our country have a right to question the institution, and it's policies. There is more to honor than following orders without question._

 
The reason an invasion is nearly impossilbe is because of our militia and the way they are trained. Its not like just because other countries cant afford, or choose not to train their militia like ours we shouldnt either.
We have worked for what we have in this country it wasnt just given. THis safety from other countries is not given. It was worked for. 
And Honestly I could careless the way another country views ours because we are world power for a reason. We have freedoms that without firearms and our militia we wouldnt have.

Everyone wants cheap walmart prices. Its all about demand and supply. People arent buying the stuff thats expensive so they have to find a way to make it cheap. Even companys that have nothing to do w firearms or anything outsource job because its cheaper.

its just the way it is. and if we werent tryint to fuel our economy then we wouldnt be where we are today.
Money is what makes the world go round.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Yeah, blaming those parents IS the answer, because those parents are adults who have the free will and capability to DO something about it and instead they choose not to._

 
Way to judge every family.  Speaking of ignorance.  Your just as guilty of using blanket insensitive statements as I am.  

 Quote:

  Absolutely, however instead of sitting and wailing about what isn't there, take advantage of what IS there and make the most of what you have. That's the way of the world. I never said "take back to back in the day" but I did and will say that while those accoutrements are nice, they're NOT necessary.  
 
Take advantage of what?  Out dated books because the school doesn't have the budget to provide new material?  Ripped/Torn/Dirty text books because the school can't replace worn materials?  What about lack of time for students to get answers to their questions.  The larger the classrooms the more students that will have questions.  It's not possible for every question to be answered when there are not enough teacher hours availible.  How about less qualified individuals not wanting to go into the education field because the incentives are lacking?  I make more money than all new teachers at public schools, and my job didn't require a college education.  What incentive is there for people to want to grow up being a teacher.  I once told my Mom (who's been teaching for almost 40 years) I wanted to be a teacher.  She laughed, and told me that given what she knows now about the school systems, she would have never been a teacher.

 Quote:

  I'm not arguing against making positive changes in society. I'm arguing against not taking action individually for the individual's shortcomings. It's YOUR responsibility to educate yourself. No one else's.  
 
How about the massive influx of uneducated immigrants that enter our country every year.  Who's teaching them to take pride in their education?  The parents?  Chances are they never got an education when they were growing up.  How can you value something you've never had a chance at having?  Let alone teach others that value?  Take your head out of the sand Shimmer.  Times are changeing, and were not doing enough to make sure were keeping up with them.

 Quote:

  Like I said, that's your argument. Its just teh internet, it dont matter neway.  
 
As long as I can understand the point of someones post, i'm not about to nit pick.  And if I do have a question, i'll ask them to clarify.  I'm not about to have the arrogance to assume that everyone posting on this board speaks english as a first language, or had a proper education.  So i'm not going to give them a hard time.  If you know enough to correct me, you knew what I was saying.  In which case the object of the post, to communicate a point, was achieved, regardless of grammar, internet short hand, text speak, or whatever.


 Quote:

  And, regarding your commentary on my SAHM status, or what my children do in their spare time, again, your ignorance is showing. You haven't the first idea what goes on within my home, and you haven't the first idea what my parenting philosophies are. Again, you've shouted not only your ignorance but your insensitivity from the rooftops. Congratulations.  
 
  The medacine is bitter when you have to take a spoon full of it isn't it Shimmer.  For someone just as guilty of making assumptions, showing ignorance, and insensitivity towards everyone who doesn't agree with your points, you sure do complain a lot when your given your own medacine.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *glamdoll* 

 
_The reason an invasion is nearly impossilbe is because of our militia and the way they are trained. Its not like just because other countries cant afford, or choose not to train their militia like ours we shouldnt either.
We have worked for what we have in this country it wasnt just given. THis safety from other countries is not given. It was worked for._

 
Actually, the reason were emerged a superpower is because we have an Ocean between us.  Pearl Harbor anyone?  Just a simple example of how unprepared the United States really was for war.  Had the United States been part of mainland Europe, or had our carriers been docked in pearl harbor, things would have been a lot different than the are today.


 Quote:

  And Honestly I could careless the way another country views ours because we are world power for a reason. We have freedoms that without firearms and our militia we wouldnt have.  
 
Were a world power by sheer luck.  And not caring about how the rest of the world views us, is a sure fire way to no longer be one.  


 Quote:

  Everyone wants cheap walmart prices. Its all about demand and supply. People arent buying the stuff thats expensive so they have to find a way to make it cheap. Even companys that have nothing to do w firearms or anything outsource job because its cheaper.

its just the way it is. and if we werent tryint to fuel our economy then we wouldnt be where we are today.
Money is what makes the world go round.  
 
Not everyone cares about Walmart prices.  Plenty of people avoid cheap, for the very reason that it's CHEAP.  Low quality comes with low prices.  The popularity of Walmart is an indication of the financial status of the majority of families in the United States.

And outsourcing weakens our economy, it doesn't make it stronger.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Way to judge every family.  Speaking of ignorance.  Your just as guilty of using blanket insensitive statements as I am.  _

 
 I'm not judging every family. 
 Quote:

  Take advantage of what?  Out dated books because the school doesn't have the budget to provide new material?  Ripped/Torn/Dirty text books because the school can't replace worn materials?    
 
Perhaps the children should take better care of their materials. Just a thought.
 Quote:

  What about lack of time for students to get answers to their questions.  The larger the classrooms the more students that will have questions.  It's not possible for every question to be answered when there are not enough teacher hours availible.  How about less qualified individuals not wanting to go into the education field because the incentives are lacking?  I make more money than all new teachers at public schools, and my job didn't require a college education.  What incentive is there for people to want to grow up being a teacher.  I once told my Mom (who's been teaching for almost 40 years) I wanted to be a teacher.  She laughed, and told me that given what she knows now about the school systems, she would have never been a teacher.  
 
I'm all for paying people what they're worth, but when you think about it, for example, in my area, teachers have NO ROOM to bitch an moan. They get holidays, four day weekends monthly usually, they get a week off during the fall (they work an admin day the Friday prior to fall break, then take off the full week with the students), two weeks at Christmas, a week during the spring, a fourday in January (MLKday), a threeday in Feb (President's Day), spring break is in March, April they get bad weather weekend (generally TX doesn't use their bad weatherdays up so we get free days off), and, in May, the last week of the month, they're off 2.5 hours early. They work 1.5 weeks in June, then take the rest of June, all of July off, then go back to work midway through the first week in August. 
They get excellent benefits, health, dental, vision, 401K, retirement, tenure.  And, they start out at 35K a year.
That's NOT a bad deal. Not at all. 
 Quote:

  How about the massive influx of uneducated immigrants that enter our country every year.  Who's teaching them to take pride in their education?  The parents?  Chances are they never got an education when they were growing up.  How can you value something you've never had a chance at having?  Let alone teach others that value?  Take your head out of the sand Shimmer.  Times are changeing, and were not doing enough to make sure were keeping up with them.  
 
 Deport the immigrants who arrived illegally and handle up on those who came legally.
FYI, most LEGAL immigrants to this country, the ones I've met, actually DID value their education, and were grateful to receive it. You'd do well to learn from them.
 Quote:

  As long as I can understand the point of someones post, i'm not about to nit pick.  And if I do have a question, i'll ask them to clarify.  I'm not about to have the arrogance to assume that everyone posting on this board speaks english as a first language, or had a proper education.  So i'm not going to give them a hard time.  If you know enough to correct me, you knew what I was saying.  In which case the object of the post, to communicate a point, was achieved, regardless of grammar, internet short hand, text speak, or whatever.  
 
And, in communicating in the manner you intentionally choose to communicate, despite your protestations of education otherwise, you lose credibility.
 Quote:

  The medacine is bitter when you have to take a spoon full of it isn't it Shimmer.  For someone just as guilty of making assumptions, showing ignorance, and insensitivity towards everyone who doesn't agree with your points, you sure do complain a lot when your given your own medacine.  
 
You didn't hand me any medIcine, my dear.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Were a world power by sheer luck.  And not caring about how the rest of the world views us, is a sure fire way to no longer be one.  
_

 
No matter what you say hereafter, the sheer idiocy of this statement negates any point you may  make on this subject in the future.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_No matter what you say hereafter, the sheer idiocy of this statement negates any point you may  make on this subject in the future._

 
Do you even know why we emerged a Superpower after WW2?  Please, since you seem to know all the reasons, enlighten us.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Do you even know why we emerged a Superpower after WW2?  Please, since you seem to know all the reasons, enlighten us._

 
Apparently we spun the roulette wheel and hit the jackpot.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 23, 2007)

Other than the fact we saved Europes @$$ in WW2 and then we dropped the bomb. And then the countries we rescued from Nazism started paying up what they owed us.

Not sheer luck. If anything we owe our becoming a super power (which really we became one after WW1) to Winston Churchill who initially was not going to ask us to Help England but he was a huge history buff. At that time he was really studying up on the Civil War and he said something along the lines of - When I first contemplated asking the Americans if they would come and fight, I was unsure since they were a relatively young country if they could stand up to the challenge and indeed be able to fight, but after reading about the civil war there is no doubt in my mind that Americans, indeed know how to fight.

Purely by accident? no. I think we were a super power in hiding (again looking at the history)  and when it was revealed we began to shine.

Going back to the government school education- I'm only going to say this- I think that the government should stay entirely away from the school systems and allow the local government to regulate the schools. The federal government has made an embarressment out of our children and they are learning very little. We are lucky if they know how to add once they get out of school.

But then again, if I ran the country, the federal government would be out of many many things. Schools included.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_I'm not judging every family._

 
Riiight.  You sure didn't make any exceptions in your blanket statements.

 Quote:

  Perhaps the children should take better care of their materials. Just a thought.  
 
Yes, and tires dont wear out by driving on them eigther right?  And regardless of the condition of text books, editions have to be replaced with newer ones.  Teaching from outdated materials is a great way to educate people.

 Quote:

  I'm all for paying people what they're worth, but when you think about it, for example, in my area, teachers have NO ROOM to bitch an moan. They get holidays, four day weekends monthly usually, they get a week off during the fall (they work an admin day the Friday prior to fall break, then take off the full week with the students), two weeks at Christmas, a week during the spring, a fourday in January (MLKday), a threeday in Feb (President's Day), spring break is in March, April they get bad weather weekend (generally TX doesn't use their bad weatherdays up so we get free days off), and, in May, the last week of the month, they're off 2.5 hours early. They work 1.5 weeks in June, then take the rest of June, all of July off, then go back to work midway through the first week in August. 
They get excellent benefits, health, dental, vision, 401K, retirement, tenure.  And, they start out at 35K a year.
That's NOT a bad deal. Not at all.  
 
35k is a terrible wage.  Especially considering the money spent into college just to apply for the position.  And while 35k may seem like a lot of money in Texas, it's barely enough to live on in California.  Especially if your paying back college loans and other debts you've probably acrued while going to school.  And teachers dont get paid during holidays.  I will admit the benefits are amazing, but thats the same type of plans availible to most government employees.


 Quote:

  Deport the immigrants who arrived illegally and handle up on those who came legally.
FYI, most LEGAL immigrants to this country, the ones I've met, actually DID value their education, and were grateful to receive it. You'd do well to learn from them.  
 
Sounds good on paper, but thats not a realistic answer to the Immigration problem in this country.  And i really dont need a lesson from anyone on education or it's value.  I have a job that pays a great wage, and gives benefits.  I have a solid work ethic, and when I need to, I can come off polished and well spoken in both verbal and written communication.  I graduated with a 3.8 sweetie.  With near perfect attendance.  I'm sure you were a strait A student right?  

 Quote:

  And, in communicating in the manner you intentionally choose to communicate, despite your protestations of education otherwise, you lose credibility.  
 
<shrug> I'm not writing a research paper here darling.  Or giving a presentation to a client.  


 Quote:

  You didn't hand me any medIcine, my dear.  
 
Your right, it was given to you, not handed.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Riiight.  You sure didn't make any exceptions in your blanket statements._

 
I don't hand out exceptions. If it doesn't apply, move along.
 Quote:

  Yes, and tires dont wear out by driving on them eigther right?  And regardless of the condition of text books, editions have to be replaced with newer ones.  Teaching from outdated materials is a great way to educate people.  
 
I didn't say it was. 
 Quote:

  35k is a terrible wage.  Especially considering the money spent into college just to apply for the position.  And while 35k may seem like a lot of money in Texas, it's barely enough to live on in California.  Especially if your paying back college loans and other debts you've probably acrued while going to school.  And teachers dont get paid during holidays.  I will admit the benefits are amazing, but thats the same type of plans availible to most government employees.  
 
NO one just entering the workforce should complain about 35k a  year, and if California is too expensive, you need to move elsewhere. Teachers are paid according to COLA. 
Yes, teachers do get paid during holidays. Every month a teacher's check is the same. They take the salary, divide by 12, and then pay the teacher that amount monthly, as stated in their contract. This may only be in TX though.
I've never known a teacher who was struggling to live. They weren't living like kings, but every teacher I know from the time I was in school to the ones I'm friends wiht now lives extremely comfortably.
 Quote:

  Sounds good on paper, but thats not a realistic answer to the Immigration problem in this country.  And i really dont need a lesson from anyone on education or it's value.  I have a job that pays a great wage, and gives benefits.  I have a solid work ethic, and when I need to, I can come off polished and well spoken in both verbal and written communication.  I graduated with a 3.8 sweetie.  With near perfect attendance.  I'm sure you were a strait A student right?    
 
No, I was never a "strait" A student. STRAIGHT A's? Eh. If I wanted to. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I didn't have to try. Learning comes very easily to me.

 Quote:

  <shrug> I'm not writing a research paper here darling.  Or giving a presentation to a client.    
 
Then don't be surprised when your credibility goes down the drain with each "submit" click. You can put a mule in horse harness and polish him up, but he's still a mule.
 Quote:

  Your right, it was given to you, not handed.  
 
HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA Keep telling yourself that honey. You might eventually convince at least yourself, if no one else.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Hawkeye* 

 
_Other than the fact we saved Europes @$$ in WW2 and then we dropped the bomb. And then the countries we rescued from Nazism started paying up what they owed us.

Not sheer luck. If anything we owe our becoming a super power (which really we became one after WW1) to Winston Churchill who initially was not going to ask us to Help England but he was a huge history buff. At that time he was really studying up on the Civil War and he said something along the lines of - When I first contemplated asking the Americans if they would come and fight, I was unsure since they were a relatively young country if they could stand up to the challenge and indeed be able to fight, but after reading about the civil war there is no doubt in my mind that Americans, indeed know how to fight.

Purely by accident? no. I think we were a super power in hiding (again looking at the history)  and when it was revealed we began to shine._

 
I agree it started after WW1, but we didn't achieve complete global dominance until after WW2, and even more so after the cold war and the collapse of the russian economy.  

The simple fact that the war wasn't being waged on our land made a huge difference in our global economic position after the war.  Our houses were not being bombed, factories were not being destroyed, people livelyhoods were not going up in flames.  This fact alone allowed our economy to survive the war in perfect condition, in comparison with other former global superpowers that were left mainly in ruins.


----------



## glamdoll (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_ 



Not everyone cares about Walmart prices. Plenty of people avoid cheap, for the very reason that it's CHEAP. Low quality comes with low prices. The popularity of Walmart is an indication of the financial status of the majority of families in the United States.

And outsourcing weakens our economy, it doesn't make it stronger._

 
I dont think we are world power on sheer luck. We dont have one of the best armies on sheer luck, or strong economy on sheer luck.
Its our people that have made it what it is with the hard work, and yes even takin from other countries, but not sheer luck.

I didnt say that Outsourcing was good for the economy. 
I said that "its all about money" and companies outsource to save money.

also there are ppl who can hardly afford to pay food n rent nevertheless expensive everyday items. 
alot of people do buy cheap items, because they cant afford any better and not all cheap price items are in terrible condition.

I think ppl would rather pay their rent n food then to buying 
expensive everyday stuff.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 23, 2007)

That, and we had a huge support system at home as well for the boys fighting. Seriously- the support for the troops and the administration at the time was immense. You didn't have the politicians undermining the war you didn't have the media undermining the war either. With that you had the strong support and with the support came the people who did everything they could possibly do to help out the troops and " the cause" of the war.

When America banded together thats how we became a super power. The people really brought forth and produced what America is capable of. 

But now we don't have that will. But it is because everyone is undermining everything and I will agree one day we will no longer be a super power if nothing more because the parties in washington can't get their act together, they are always trying to undermine something in order to get votes and not what is best for the country, the government has too much power and has no idea what to do with it and because americans see this of course we're not going to do what we can to help the country so yeah it will collapse unless somebody has the guts to stop it.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_No one just entering the workforce should complain about 35k a  year, and if California is too expensive, you need to move elsewhere. Teachers are paid according to COLA._

 
35k is a pretty lame wage Shimmer.  And not everyone wants to live in hickville. 


 Quote:

  Yes, teachers do get paid during holidays. Every month a teacher's check is the same. They take the salary, divide by 12, and then pay the teacher that amount monthly, as stated in their contract. This may only be in TX though.  
 
Yes, this is why my Mom taught Summer school so we could pay our bills when I was growing up.  My Mistake.  Oh and she was lying to me when she said that money was getting tight towards the end of August because she hadn't been paid in 2 months.  


 Quote:

  I've never known a teacher who was struggling to live. They weren't living like kings, but every teacher I know from the time I was in school to the ones I'm friends wiht now lives extremely comfortably.  
 
How long had they been teaching b4 you met them?  If you can stomache the job, after 35-40 years you can make a nice wage.  But starting salaries aren't nearly high enough to attract the talent needed to staff our schools.

 Quote:

  No, I was never a "strait" A student. STRAIGHT A's? Eh. If I wanted to. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I didn't have to try. Learning comes very easily to me.  
 
You knew what the intent was, you should know me by now, i'm not about to proof read when i'm typing 80 words a minute.

Kinda ironic how your parents seem to have been the same type of parents you despise now.  "Learning came easy to me, i just didn't care, i wanted to party instead."  


 Quote:

  Then don't be surprised when your credibility goes down the drain with each "submit" click. You can put a mule in horse harness and polish him up, but he's still a mule.  
 
And you can spell/gramamr check your posts all you want, but a bad position, is still a bad one.


 Quote:

  HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA Keep telling yourself that honey. You might eventually convince at least yourself, if no one else.  
 
Chin up hun, you dribbled a little. Lemme get a napkin and wipe it for you.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *glamdoll* 

 
_I dont think we are world power on sheer luck. We dont have one of the best armies on sheer luck, or strong economy on sheer luck.
Its our people that have made it what it is with the hard work, and yes even takin from other countries, but not sheer luck._

 
Had appeasement not been the global policy of Europe prior to the rise of Nazi Germany, or had the governments of the world not been so bent on punishing Germany for WW1, things would be a lot different today.  It was luck.  


 Quote:

  also there are ppl who can hardly afford to pay food n rent nevertheless expensive everyday items. 
alot of people do buy cheap items, because they cant afford any better and not all cheap price items are in terrible condition.

I think ppl would rather pay their rent n food then to buying 
expensive everyday stuff.  
 
I agree with you.  I thought, "The popularity of Walmart is an indication of the financial status of the majority of families in the United States." was a pretty clear admission that poverty is a huge problem in our country.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Hawkeye* 

 
_But now we don't have that will. But it is because everyone is undermining everything and I will agree one day we will no longer be a super power if nothing more because the parties in washington can't get their act together, they are always trying to undermine something in order to get votes and not what is best for the country, the government has too much power and has no idea what to do with it and because americans see this of course we're not going to do what we can to help the country so yeah it will collapse unless somebody has the guts to stop it._

 
Perhaps if people were more interested in things other than Gay Marriage or other pointless political topics, things that matter might have a chance to get noticed.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_35k is a pretty lame wage Shimmer.  And not everyone wants to live in hickville. _

 
Do your research. DFW and its suburbs are hardly "hickville". 
 Quote:

 
Yes, this is why my Mom taught Summer school so we could pay our bills when I was growing up.  My Mistake.  Oh and she was lying to me when she said that money was getting tight towards the end of August because she hadn't been paid in 2 months.  

 
I said IN TEXAS or did you miss that part?
 Quote:

  How long had they been teaching b4 you met them?  If you can stomache the job, after 35-40 years you can make a nice wage.  But starting salaries aren't nearly high enough to attract the talent needed to staff our schools.  
 
Lets see, Stephanie just started, Jo's been teaching for several years and makes closer to 60K for  what works out to just short of 9 mos a year of work. Craig's not suffering, neither is Nancy, Joe, Judy, Tricia, Kurt...
Yeah. They all started at the bottom and were making meh wages and within 5 years were making comfortable wages. And THAT is in hickville. A teacher in Dallas starts out at 50K no questions asked.
 Quote:

  You knew what the intent was, you should know me by now, i'm not about to proof read when i'm typing 80 words a minute.  
 
Your laziness isn't my problem.
 Quote:

  Kinda ironic how your parents seem to have been the same type of parents you despise now.  "Learning came easy to me, i just didn't care, i wanted to party instead."    
 
Actually, no. 
I didn't "party". I've never been, except while in the military, a "party" person. I simply took the knowledge as it was given, devoured it (I finished my history book f-s years before the 2nd week of school.), and chose to regurgitate it when necessary. I'm admittedly mercenary. 
And, I love my parents, but I don't deny they made mistakes. 
 Quote:

  And you can spell/gramamr check your posts all you want, but a bad position, is still a bad one.  
 
Glad you recognize your stance.
 Quote:

  Chin up hun, you dribbled a little. Lemme get a napkin and wipe it for you.  
 
Sweetie, you're not now, nor will you ever be, woman enough to "give me" any kind of medicine. I assure you of that.
Your insults are amusing, granted, but fall desperately short of hitting their mark. 
Remember, you may grab the tiger by the tail, but the other end has teeth and claws.  I'll never meet you in the real world, however, eventually, you'll find someone in your day to day life similar enough to me, and they'll hand you your ass. I wish I could be there to see it, because it would be a humorous decimation of an overstated and highly self inflated ego, but  that would mean actually knowing and being around you, and I don't hang with people too vapid and unmotivated to form their own conclusions about life without having actually experienced any of it.



Now, if you can make a point  that's rationally thought out and isn't the most repetition of whatever pundit happened to be on the radio this morning, by all means do so. Raise a valid point, and gladly, it would be  considered.
Talk for the sole purpose of seeing letters beside your name and seeing your post count go up?
Nah.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Perhaps if people were more interested in things other than Gay Marriage or other pointless political topics, things that matter might have a chance to get noticed._

 
This is absolutely correct.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 23, 2007)

I agree raerae....

and that takes us back to the education and hollywood and whatnot. 

Hollywood has taken the more - and this isn't the best term to use but I'll say it anyway- less important topics (Gay marriage and what not- which shouldn't be dictated by the federal government anyway but by state government) and brought the huge outcry for the feds to take care of it.

Again- they don't know who to go to they go running over and whimpering to big brother to fight their battles for them- and since they have the money in hollywood.....guess who gets the most attention?

And then you have the schools (again federally mandated except private schools) teaching that (and this is just me paraphrasing) that private property doesn't exist and that its acceptable to listen to hollywood and watch American idol and what not. 

Going back to the public schools and the educational system I found this on boortz.com 8/11/03

_There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him._ -- Robert Heinlein 

This would be the Monday when school starts across the nation. This will also be the Monday when your precious little rug rats will get their annual leftist indoctrination against basic property rights. 

I hit this particular topic every year about this time. To really get the point across I like to focus on first-graders – the first year in a government school. 

About a year ago I wrote a column for World Net Daily detailing your child's first day of school. Here is part of what I had to say then. It's just as true, if not more so, today: 

Do you remember those weeks before school started for your first grader? There you were, you and your proud new student walking the aisles of the local Costco with your list of school supplies in hand. You checked off the pencils, a ruler, a compass, paste, construction paper, a pencil holder, notebooks and erasers. At home, your first grader takes the supplies into his room and spreads everything out on the bed. Arranges them this way – then that way. Pencils next to the erasers, glue and construction paper lined up over here, compass and ruler lined up over there. These are his supplies. His! Do you hear? And tomorrow he is going to take them to school. He couldn't be more proud. 

Finally, the first day of school arrives. The night before all of the school supplies are packed, repacked, unpacked and repacked again. Then, that morning, just one more unpacking and repacking to make sure everything's still there and undamaged. OK! It's off we go to school! Apprehension mixed with pride. Your young man or woman is taking another grand step toward adulthood! What could go wrong? 

Plenty. Remember, it's a government operation. 

The students are seated, the bell rings. As fast as you can say the Pledge of Allegiance without the "under God" part, the indoctrination begins. The government teacher steps in front of her virtual hostages and promptly delivers the first raw lesson in the power of government. The students are instructed to bring all of their precious school supplies – their property – to the front of the classroom and put them into a huge box. They are told that the supplies belong to all of the class now, and the teacher will assume the responsibility of distributing the supplies as they are needed. 

_"Whoaa! Hold on a minute here! These are my supplies. My daddy bought them for me. You can't have them! They're mine!" _

Nope. Sorry! They were yours. Now all those supplies belong to – guess who? The government! 

There's a method to this madness. Your child is being taught that there are some severe limits to the concept of private property. It is perfectly OK, for instance, if the government just steps up and seizes your property if there are other people who might need some of your stuff. After all, it's just not right for you to have something that other people don't have or can't share in, is it? 

This whole "dump your supplies into this box" is not an innocent exercise. Your child's teacher might not even be aware of it, but this lesson in government power is a time-honored method of introducing your child to the concept that there is something basically wrong with owning private property – but everything will be OK if you just let your superiors even things out a bit by taking some stuff from you and giving it to someone else. 

How did Marx present this concept? I think it was something like "From each according to his ability; to each according to his need." 

Day number one, lesson number one: Your rights to your property exist only so long as government will allow, and it's just not fair to have more stuff than someone else. 

And this is just the first week! More surprises in store! Wait until you get that call from your child's teacher with vague, dark hints of a better world for your child if only he was on Ritalin. 


So that being shown the attention wont be deverted because at a young age we already start thinking in terms of words like "Common Good" 

Again this is from Boortz.com 10/17/06 and I do not agree with him attacking the democrats on this but I do agree with the point he is trying to get across:

*DEMOCRATS OUT FRONT ON ANTI-INDIVIDUALISM.*
*



*The Democrats have now rolled out their catch phrase for the 2008 mid-term elections.  You'll be hearing it time after time after time from Democrat spokesmen and candidates from now until election day.  It's a phrase that does nothing less than lend support to the identification of Democrats as nothing less than big-government socialists.  
The Democrat's catch phrase is one that will surely bring smiles to the faces of Marx and Lenin in whatever corner of hell they now occupy.  The word --- or two words, if you will -- for the Democrats is now "common good."
Well, at least the Democrats are being loyal to their socialist roots.  "Common good" was a catch-phrase for the communist movement for decades, now it is being officially embraced by the Democrats.  No real surprise here.  Democrat icon Ted Kennedy announced the war on individualism -- using those very words -- many years ago.  
The idea of the "common good" is completely contrary to the concept of individualism.  You either support and promote the idea of individuality, or you ignore the rights of the individual for the good of the whole .. for the common good.  
So .. here we have the Democrats telling you just exactly who they are, and who they think you are -- not an individual, just one element that makes up the masses.
These people and their socialist "common good" theme are dangerous to freedom, liberty and the very concept of the individual.  If you're looking for a reason to vote for the free-spending, big-government Republicans, the Democrats and their "common good" theme would be it.


So this is a huge thing with the american public. It's not even the really small issues it's a huge thing that at a young age we're taught the common good is most important and then we divert our attention to hollywood and whatever they tell us to think- because the american public is very stupid and we are sheep we automatically do it.


----------



## ilovexnerdsx (Mar 23, 2007)

along the same lines, my dad was at a gas station recently and someone approached him and said "hey, i notice you're wearing glasses...mine fell in the backseat and i cant see to find them, will you help me?" my dad obviously said no.


be careful of that too, ladies


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 23, 2007)

P.S. DFW- that is a huge metropolitan area- similar to ATL in TX.


----------



## glamdoll (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_I agree with you. I thought, "The popularity of Walmart is an indication of the financial status of the majority of families in the United States." was a pretty clear admission that poverty is a huge problem in our country._

 
Yes it is. Poverty is a problem in EVERY country.
At least here we have enough help that where people look or ask for help they can get it. There are shelters, and churches that give food out to the needy. There is also welfare, and when you get old there is social security.

In other countries such as mexico, ppl dont have that kind of help. 
they make their houses out of sticks, and I have seen this first hand. In mexico ur either rich or poor. there is no middle class.
because the government there isnt like ours.


----------



## Trunkmonkey (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_ 

Now, if you can make a point that's rationally thought out and isn't the most repetition of whatever pundit happened to be on the radio this morning, by all means do so. Raise a valid point, and gladly, it would be considered.
Talk for the sole purpose of seeing letters beside your name and seeing your post count go up?
Nah._


----------



## Beauty Mark (Mar 23, 2007)

Do schools seriously redistribute stuff you bought your kids? What happened when I was in school was that everyone was free to bring whatever they like, but the school would also supply stuff like a few pencils, erasers, and some crayons. It wasn't glamorous stuff compared to other people's but it sufficed.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 23, 2007)

In my school system (and see being that I actually worked with the school system and studied under about 3 other school systems before I got my teaching degree and then getting so disgusted with it I said to hell with it and changed majors)- Yes

Yes.

They do.

Everytime on the first day of school.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Beauty Mark* 

 
_Do schools seriously redistribute stuff you bought your kids? What happened when I was in school was that everyone was free to bring whatever they like, but the school would also supply stuff like a few pencils, erasers, and some crayons. It wasn't glamorous stuff compared to other people's but it sufficed._

 
ohhhh yes.
They certainly do, and will try, if you let them.
They also demand specific brands of supplies and will send nice little notes home with your child stating you purchased the wrong brand, please return these and get XXXX brand.


Indeed they do.


----------



## Beauty Mark (Mar 23, 2007)

Does the school get money for using specific brands, like a sponsorship?


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Nope. They just don't Devon feeling bad about himself because Susan is using Crayola, and his parents bought him Rose Art.



And, when they dump the supplies all together, they want them to all be the same brand.


----------



## Beauty Mark (Mar 23, 2007)

That's the dumbest thing I ever heard of. If they wanted everyone to have the same thing, the school should just supply it. Do your kids go to school in uniforms, too?

I'm curious if this is something that happens everywhere or is just something that happens in the south. I seriously have never heard of this happening, but my youngest cousin is 13 now. I'm going to ask some friends who are familiar with schools in the north about it.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 23, 2007)

I've had friends move to places in MT and CO and a friend of mine from ID tell me the same thing. Definately find out about it.

Yes, it is stupid- but it's all in the name of the common good. 

And it's just one more way the government is changing out thinking abilities and refusing to let us think our way and distracting us with what hollywood has to tell us.


----------



## Beauty Mark (Mar 23, 2007)

The only thing I get out of it is that it just teaches kids to be more brand conscious than they already are.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

No, my kids don't wear unis to school, though once they're in HS I wish they would. :/


----------



## Chic 2k6 (Mar 23, 2007)

good grief. a man from neighbour hood watch just alerted Mom to watch out for a fat guy in uniform with a Forged ID, and the man claims that he's a gas checker so he can get in your house and steal stuff.

my area has the most alert neighbour hood watch but still there's burgalries happening, gah. someone down the road had their spanking new $30,000 mini nicked (got it back though)


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Beauty Mark* 

 
_Do schools seriously redistribute stuff you bought your kids? What happened when I was in school was that everyone was free to bring whatever they like, but the school would also supply stuff like a few pencils, erasers, and some crayons. It wasn't glamorous stuff compared to other people's but it sufficed._

 
Yeh, dunno what schools you went to heh...

I remember having all sorts of cute school supplies that were mine, and mine alone.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Yeh, dunno what schools you went to heh...

I remember having all sorts of cute school supplies that were mine, and mine alone._

 
Lots of schools do it, and it's frustrating, but yeah, I had my little lisa frank trapper keeper and my brightly colored pencils and my stuff, and I didn't have to share. 

They were going to make the students in my daughter's kindergarten class share, but the head teacher got like 8 nastygrams from parents who refused to purchase supplies for classroom use, so the idea got nixed. It's become more prevalant in the past 6 or so years.


----------



## *Stargazer* (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Beauty Mark* 

 
_That's the dumbest thing I ever heard of. If they wanted everyone to have the same thing, the school should just supply it. Do your kids go to school in uniforms, too?

I'm curious if this is something that happens everywhere or is just something that happens in the south. I seriously have never heard of this happening, but my youngest cousin is 13 now. I'm going to ask some friends who are familiar with schools in the north about it._

 
This is commonplace now. My daughters' school does the same thing. And its a private school that I pay a "supply" fee to. So on top of the supply fee, all extra supplies brought in are community property.


----------



## Beauty Mark (Mar 23, 2007)

The thing I don't understand about this trend is why they're doing it if they don't bother with uniforms. I think kids in general are more conscious of clothing brands than they are with supplies.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Do your research. DFW and its suburbs are hardly "hickville"._

 
lol...  i hear everyone has bull horns mounted on the front of their cars there too.

 Quote:

  I said IN TEXAS or did you miss that part?  
 
  I was explaining how California's district where my Mom works.  I was clearly not describing Texas.

 Quote:

  Lets see, Stephanie just started, Jo's been teaching for several years and makes closer to 60K for  what works out to just short of 9 mos a year of work. Craig's not suffering, neither is Nancy, Joe, Judy, Tricia, Kurt...
Yeah. They all started at the bottom and were making meh wages and within 5 years were making comfortable wages. And THAT is in hickville. A teacher in Dallas starts out at 50K no questions asked.  
 
Our concepts of income are very different Shimmer.  50-60k isn't much eigther.

 Quote:

  Your laziness isn't my problem.  
 
It's a well known fact that people who attack other people's grammar/spelling only do so because they lack a real argument.


 Quote:

  I didn't "party". I've never been, except while in the military, a "party" person.  
 
Glad our tax dollars go to paying for your martini's.

 Quote:

  Sweetie, you're not now, nor will you ever be, woman enough to "give me" any kind of medicine. I assure you of that.
Your insults are amusing, granted, but fall desperately short of hitting their mark.  
 
Thats only because of Specktra's play nice policies chica.  Besides I'm not trying to really insult you, i'd hate to have you stop posting like most of the other girls you've given a hard time.

 Quote:

  Remember, you may grab the tiger by the tail, but the other end has teeth and claws.  I'll never meet you in the real world, however, eventually, you'll find someone in your day to day life similar enough to me, and they'll hand you your ass. I wish I could be there to see it, because it would be a humorous decimation of an overstated and highly self inflated ego, but  that would mean actually knowing and being around you, and I don't hang with people too vapid and unmotivated to form their own conclusions about life without having actually experienced any of it.  
 
I'm to thin to get my ass handed to me, you'd have to have an ass first.  And violence as an answer only shows lack of any real intelligence.  So sorry hun, that day will never happen.  


 Quote:

  Now, if you can make a point  that's rationally thought out and isn't the most repetition of whatever pundit happened to be on the radio this morning, by all means do so. Raise a valid point, and gladly, it would be  considered.
Talk for the sole purpose of seeing letters beside your name and seeing your post count go up?
Nah.  
 
Please, your as guilty as anyone of the above.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Lots of schools do it, and it's frustrating, but yeah, I had my little lisa frank trapper keeper and my brightly colored pencils and my stuff, and I didn't have to share. 

They were going to make the students in my daughter's kindergarten class share, but the head teacher got like 8 nastygrams from parents who refused to purchase supplies for classroom use, so the idea got nixed. It's become more prevalant in the past 6 or so years._

 
Perhaps if we spent some of the budget on Iraq, on pencils and paper instead, people woulnd't have to share?  Novel idea I know, increasing school budgets.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_novella without any content other than to be wholly inflammatory._

 
k.
See here's the problem, you post, and you prattle, and you instigate, but you have nothing to substantiate what you're saying. Logic, reasoning, and intelligent thought. Give it a try sometime, instead of hanging around on the internet using its anonymity to protect you when you want to say things only to inflame the people who share the boards with you.

I don't expect to agree with you even half the time, and agreement isn't necessary in order to continue in threads like these, but the ability to create and hang with a thread while maintaining original thought process and eloquence of point is integral.

You  make several good points, I don't deny that, but your point(s) are lost because of your inability to effectively debate.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_Perhaps if we spent some of the budget on Iraq, on pencils and paper instead, people woulnd't have to share?  Novel idea I know, increasing school budgets._

 
Perhaps the money that's being spent on Iraq wouldn't be used on schools anyway.
Like I said previously, previous presidents and houses of Congress who didn't have an ongoing war to pay for were unwilling to spend the money necessary on increasing school budgets.  Blaming the war in Iraq for something that's been ignored whether the war was going on or not is really just that, pointing fingers and laying blame.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Beauty Mark* 

 
_The thing I don't understand about this trend is why they're doing it if they don't bother with uniforms. I think kids in general are more conscious of clothing brands than they are with supplies._

 
One of the local schools in Long Beach actually does uniforms.  I see all the kids waiting for the bus every morning in khaki pants, and white polo shirts.  And white sneakers.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Beauty Mark* 

 
_The thing I don't understand about this trend is why they're doing it if they don't bother with uniforms. I think kids in general are more conscious of clothing brands than they are with supplies._

 

Many schools are actually pushing for uniforms as well. I know a local school - a public school does have a uniform. A local county does as well. 

Because they don't want little johnny to be upset that he doesn't have the expensive brand shirts.

And we are allowing it because of the whole sensitivity sh*t (yes, I said the word) and the P.C.  B.S. that is so rampant.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Perhaps the money that's being spent on Iraq wouldn't be used on schools anyway.
Like I said previously, previous presidents and houses of Congress who didn't have an ongoing war to pay for were unwilling to spend the money necessary on increasing school budgets.  Blaming the war in Iraq for something that's been ignored whether the war was going on or not is really just that, pointing fingers and laying blame._

 
They were too busy paying off debts from other President's foreign policies.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Hawkeye* 

 
_Many schools are actually pushing for uniforms as well. I know a local school - a public school does have a uniform. A local county does as well. 

Because they don't want little johnny to be upset that he doesn't have the expensive brand shirts._

 
Dont forget seperating boys from girls.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_They were too busy paying off debts from other President's foreign policies._

 
Keep placing blame. Please.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 23, 2007)

I have not seen that here. Elaborate please?


----------



## Beauty Mark (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Hawkeye* 

 
_Many schools are actually pushing for uniforms as well. I know a local school - a public school does have a uniform. A local county does as well. 

Because they don't want little johnny to be upset that he doesn't have the expensive brand shirts.

And we are allowing it because of the whole sensitivity sh*t (yes, I said the word) and the P.C.  B.S. that is so rampant._

 
My school district actually did it with the students in the younger grades. They thought it would take the focus off of clothes somehow. I don't know, because they didn't have a school issued uniform; you could wear whatever you wanted, brand wise, as long as it conformed to certain colors and cuts.

I'm not opposed to uniforms, though. Enforcing dress code was difficult for teachers and hall monitors, because they ran the risk of sexual harassment accussations. If they spelled out specifically how one was to dress, I think it would be a lot easier.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Beauty Mark* 

 
_The thing I don't understand about this trend is why they're doing it if they don't bother with uniforms. I think kids in general are more conscious of clothing brands than they are with supplies._

 
It's one way of compensating for children who can't afford supplies, supposedly. :/


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Hawkeye* 

 
_I have not seen that here. Elaborate please?_

 
..who?


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_You  make several good points, I don't deny that, but your point(s) are lost because of your inability to effectively debate._

 
It's informal chatter Shimmer.  If you want to have a formal discussion with well thought out posts, a thesis, and a concise and conclusive argument, then state that in the thread.

Until then this is nothing more than watercooler prattle.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Beauty Mark* 

 
_My school district actually did it with the students in the younger grades. They thought it would take the focus off of clothes somehow. I don't know, because they didn't have a school issued uniform; you could wear whatever you wanted, brand wise, as long as it conformed to certain colors and cuts.

I'm not opposed to uniforms, though. Enforcing dress code was difficult for teachers and hall monitors, because they ran the risk of sexual harassment accussations. If they spelled out specifically how one was to dress, I think it would be a lot easier._

 
That's why I'm totally f or it, particularly in high school. 
The kids at the district we attend have the OC style going, which is against the dress code, and every year the school has to modify the code to allow for trends. It'd eliminate a lot of problems if the district would simply institute a dress code.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_It's informal chatter Shimmer.  If you want to have a formal discussion with well thought out posts, a thesis, and a concise and conclusive argument, then state that in the thread.

Until then this is nothing more than watercooler prattle._

 
Actually, I was more referencing the fact that 90% of your posts lack anything close to relevant content or a point.q


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Keep placing blame. Please._

 
It's not blame, it's reality.  Education is severly undervalued in our society, and presidents get good marks by reducing the defecit by cutting budgets, not by adding to them by giving schools more money.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Then why are you blaming the war on Iraq?


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Actually, I was more referencing the fact that 90% of your posts lack anything close to relevant content or a point.q_

 
The same could be said for 90% of the opinion you post.  Regardless of the fact that none of these discussions are moderated to keep them on topic.  So it's no wonder your having a hard time keeping up.


----------



## Beauty Mark (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_It's one way of compensating for children who can't afford supplies, supposedly. :/_

 
I get that, but what I don't get is the logic, because when I was in school, you were more likely to be teased for not wearing the cool item or wearing old clothes than you were for using generic crayons. Sure, we all envied the girls with the really fancy stuff (sometimes, that was me), but I don't recall anyone being made fun of for generic items. Clothes were the symbol of money, not supplies.

I have an issue not with your logic but with whatever school districts are enforcing it. Supplies like crayons and what not are trivial items compared to the fashion comparisons that happen.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Then why are you blaming the war on Iraq?_

 
I was merely referencing the fact that we spend billions on a comlpetely avoidable war, w/out question.  And giving an example of where that money that was wasted by Bush Jr. trying to 1 up his dad's presidency could have been better invested.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Beauty Mark* 

 
_Sure, we all envied the girls with the really fancy stuff (sometimes, that was me), but I don't recall anyone being made fun of for generic items._

 
Haha remember those pens with the little electric buzzy thing at the top, that let you write in spirals? LOL.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_The same could be said for 90% of the opinion you post.  Regardless of the fact that none of these discussions are moderated to keep them on topic.  So it's no wonder your having a hard time keeping up._

 
Sweetheart, if I moderated this thread to remove the irrelevant BS you'd whine and cry to the site's administrators again about how you're overmoderated, then you'd go offline for a few days and pout, then you'd come back on and start your same old stuff. You've done it too many times in the past for it to have escaped notice that that is indeed your pattern.
You want me to moderate, you just don't want me to moderate YOU. There are several posts in this thread you've made that you made for no other reason than to be inflammatory. You've violated numbers 10, 12, and 13 of the TOS repeatedly within this thread, and were you moderated for it and your comments removed, you'd send an angry PM to Janice (again) about how mean I am and how unfair I am to you and how I obviously have it out for you, and then you'd send me multiple angry PMs (oh I still have those saved by the way) demanding that I return your post to its original position. We've already had this go 'round. 
Instead of moderating the thread to keep you on topic, and removing the irrelevant blather, I'll let your actions speak for themselves.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Beauty Mark* 

 
_I get that, but what I don't get is the logic, because when I was in school, you were more likely to be teased for not wearing the cool item or wearing old clothes than you were for using generic crayons. Sure, we all envied the girls with the really fancy stuff (sometimes, that was me), but I don't recall anyone being made fun of for generic items. Clothes were the symbol of money, not supplies.

I have an issue not with your logic but with whatever school districts are enforcing it. Supplies like crayons and what not are trivial items compared to the fashion comparisons that happen._

 
Oh yeah, it's absolutely ridiculous. And, parents have to be willing to stop the schools from doing it. :/


----------



## Trunkmonkey (Mar 23, 2007)

You know I think everybody needs to take a step back and breathe a bit.  Oil and water will never mix.  Even a monkey knows that.  

A personal opinion Rae.. and nothing personal against you.  I've know and know people all over the web like you wander into a cave and piss off a bear then act all upset that it turned out to be a grizzly rather than a pooh. 

You're way left wing and a lot of people are way right wing and they're never EVER going to agree on policy etc.. 

It's a waste of time to argue about it.

So, umm, anyone got some fruit or maybe a fresh tick? I'm a little on the munchie side.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_You'd go offline for a few days and pout,_

 
  Actually unlike you, there are times where I dont have the freetime to sit on this site reading every post everyone makes.  Try getting away from the house for once, it's healthy for you.

 Quote:

  You want me to moderate, you just don't want me to moderate YOU. There are several posts in this thread you've made that you made for no other reason than to be inflammatory. You've violated numbers 10, 12, and 13 of the TOS repeatedly within this thread, and were you moderated for it and your comments removed, you'd send an angry PM to Janice (again) about how mean I am and how unfair I am to you and how I obviously have it out for you, and then you'd send me multiple angry PMs (oh I still have those saved by the way) demanding that I return your post to its original position. We've already had this go 'round. 
Instead of moderating the thread to keep you on topic, and removing the irrelevant blather, I'll let your actions speak for themselves.  
 
There is a difference between moderation based on your opinion, and moderating based on a set of guidelines outlined in a thread.  You'd need a flowchart to keep track of every comment/sub thread thats going on in this thread alone.

Like I said, if you really want to have a formal discussion, with well researched and cited arguments with the object of convincing a objective reader of your opinion, we can have those.  But until then, your going to have a difficult time.

Especially considering I'm responding to about 5-6 different people, and responding to their comments about comments on other people's comments which were comments on other people's comments it's not exactly far fetched to understand why I'm not trying overly hard to keep track of everything.

Just consider yourself lucky you have someone willing to keep you busy with pointless conversation.  You scared everyone else away.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

sure thing honey.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Trunkmonkey* 

 
_You know I think everybody needs to take a step back and breathe a bit.  Oil and water will never mix.  Even a monkey knows that._

 
I doubt Shimmer is upset or bothered by anything anyone has ever posted about her.  I know I'm not.

 Quote:

  A personal opinion Rae.. and nothing personal against you.  I've know and know people all over the web like you wander into a cave and piss off a bear then act all upset that it turned out to be a grizzly rather than a pooh.  
 
Shimmer's not a grizzly.  And regardless of our differing opinions on many things, I have mucho respect for her.  I give her a hard time because she can take it.  And while I have objected to her choice of modding in the past, it's typically on instances where she's equally guilty of doing the same.  Monkey see Monkey do.

 Quote:

  You're way left wing and a lot of people are way right wing and they're never EVER going to agree on policy etc..  
 
Yeh but it's fun to discuss it.  Even though we may not ever agree, you can learn a lot about a topic in the process.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_I doubt Shimmer is upset or bothered by anything anyone has ever posted about her.  I know I'm not.



Shimmer's not a grizzly.  And regardless of our differing opinions on many things, I have mucho respect for her.  I give her a hard time because she can take it.  And while I have objected to her choice of modding in the past, it's typically on instances where she's equally guilty of doing the same.  Monkey see Monkey do.



Yeh but it's fun to discuss it.  Even though we may not ever agree, you can learn a lot about a topic in the process._

 
You call me a monkey again, you better specify spydermonkey. They're the cute ones dammit!


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Sweetheart, if I moderated this thread to remove the irrelevant BS you'd whine and cry to the site's administrators again about how you're overmoderated, then you'd go offline for a few days and pout, then you'd come back on and start your same old stuff. You've done it too many times in the past for it to have escaped notice that that is indeed your pattern.
You want me to moderate, you just don't want me to moderate YOU. There are several posts in this thread you've made that you made for no other reason than to be inflammatory. You've violated numbers 10, 12, and 13 of the TOS repeatedly within this thread, and were you moderated for it and your comments removed, you'd send an angry PM to Janice (again) about how mean I am and how unfair I am to you and how I obviously have it out for you, and then you'd send me multiple angry PMs (oh I still have those saved by the way) demanding that I return your post to its original position. We've already had this go 'round. 
Instead of moderating the thread to keep you on topic, and removing the irrelevant blather, I'll let your actions speak for themselves._

 

Unfortunately, it does appear to be a cycle.... :/ 

and earlier Shimmer you asked "who" when I asked someone to elaborate- I had not heard this about boys and girls being seperated and i wanted to know more info on that. I'm searching the web now- but I was asking Raerae.

Trunk-I don't think raerae is essentially a liberal and I can have about 50% of the ladies on here who will scream if you call them right wing. Me being one of them.

I'm more of a liberterian than anything. 

But anyway- I think she is just arguing for the sake of arguing because that is just what she does. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It really has nothing to do with what political stance you are.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 23, 2007)

ahhhh. Some schools do it, but it's really not prevalent, at least in my area.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 23, 2007)

yeah here in ATL it's not that big either. Must be a new trend or a new way to "stop having peoples feelings hurt" after all it might hurt someone if there is a girl and a guy holding hands and they don't have an SO *rolls eyes* LOL


----------



## Beauty Mark (Mar 24, 2007)

Quote:

  Haha remember those pens with the little electric buzzy thing at the top, that let you write in spirals? LOL.  
 
I had a pen that had ten different ink colors to choose from. It was huge and cumbersome to write with, but I loved it.

 Quote:

  yeah here in ATL it's not that big either. Must be a new trend or a new way to "stop having peoples feelings hurt" after all it might hurt someone if there is a girl and a guy holding hands and they don't have an SO *rolls eyes* LOL  
 
From what I understand, the concept is about female and male students not intimidating each other academically. Allegedly, it'll help females take more of an interest in science and math. A while back there was something about guys not doing as well in class and somehow that correlated to women in the classroom. It wasn't sexual distraction; either The Daily Show or The Colbert Report did some story about it.

You may scoff at that idea of this, but single-sex education is alive and well. I went to a single sex school; I didn't think much about it, honestly, and after going, I question its value. I've had friends who seriously believe that their college educations were better because they didn't have men there. I also know some women who have had very little interaction with males, because their entire education was single-sex. I know some women who damn near hate men, because they haven't been exposed to many and stereotype them.

Yeah, I know that's possible to happen in any circumstance, but I think by cutting yourself off from the opportunity, you are more likely to stay in that mind set.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 24, 2007)

didn't they do a spoof of that on the simpsons? (go ahead and laugh) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but they were talking about numbers and science and how it made you feel etc and then the boys were just all macho and what not.


----------



## lipstickandhate (Mar 24, 2007)

Rae Rae- 

I work as a prosecutor in Kings County, Brooklyn and before that, I worked in Richmond County, Staten Island. I could produce you pages upon pages about how ludicrous and tight our gun control laws are and pages and pages more about how any moron hell bent on getting a gun can obtain one anyway, shoot someone over a pair of Nikes or a crack pipe and then be rescued from responsibility by people with minds so open their brains fell out whining about how America is a culture of violence and we need tighter gun controls. If anything, we need tighter parental controls, but that is another story for another day.


Most people who take the time to go through legal channels to obtain firearms are responsible, thoughtful gun owners. Most people involved in gun crime are in illegal possession, DESPITE INCREDIBLY RESTRICTIVE GUN CONTROL LAWS. Idiots, not guns, are responsible for gun crime. And if you think making guns totally illegal will solve anything, see exhibits A, B, and C: drugs, child porn, and prostitution.

Finally, as passionate as you are on the subject, I hope you are seriously lobbying your legislature to impose higher mandatory sentencing guidelines for people who commit firearms-related felonies. In addition, you should be writing your local DA about why he or she doesn't vigorously prosecute multiple felons who are arrested again and again in illegal possession of firearms (Snoop Dogg anyone) and encouraging him to devote time and resources to doing so. And that is where the trouble lies.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 24, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *lipstickandhate* 

 
_(Snoop Dogg anyone)_

 
Snoop Dogg is America's most loveable pimp according to Rolling Stone Magazine, we can't be to harsh on him.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 24, 2007)

Loveable or not he's a criminal, and a repeat offender at that, and should be treated like one.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 24, 2007)

You'd be taking away the role model of millions of young men in America though.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 24, 2007)

Not my problem.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 24, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_You'd be taking away the role model of millions of young men in America though._

 

Maybe that is a good thing. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It's not like he's the best role model anyway- teaching violence against his fellow man, violance and disrespect towards women, teaching its ok to disobey the law, among other things. 

I say lets go for it.


----------



## Beauty Mark (Mar 24, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Hawkeye* 

 
_didn't they do a spoof of that on the simpsons? (go ahead and laugh) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but they were talking about numbers and science and how it made you feel etc and then the boys were just all macho and what not._

 
Yeah, the girl classes were watered down to the point that they didn't learn jack. Lisa had to go in drag to the boys' classes so she could learn.

I'm a deeply biased fan, but people do not give the Simpsons enough credit. They make some great topical points at times.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 24, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Not my problem._

 
I think you missed my sarcasm ;p


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 24, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_I think you missed my sarcasm ;p_

 
Nah, I caught it.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 24, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Beauty Mark* 

 
_Yeah, the girl classes were watered down to the point that they didn't learn jack. Lisa had to go in drag to the boys' classes so she could learn.

I'm a deeply biased fan, but people do not give the Simpsons enough credit. They make some great topical points at times._

 

They really do. It's a brilliant show.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 24, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Beauty Mark* 

 
_Yeah, the girl classes were watered down to the point that they didn't learn jack. Lisa had to go in drag to the boys' classes so she could learn.

I'm a deeply biased fan, but people do not give the Simpsons enough credit. They make some great topical points at times._

 
So does South Park.
I don't necessarily care for the method of delivery sometimes, but I do enjoy watching the mainstream crowd struggle under the scrutiny.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 24, 2007)

you know I would even venture to say that so does Family Guy. 

I used to love South Park but i couldn't get past it. After a while I got tired of the *BLEEEP*


----------



## Beauty Mark (Mar 24, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_So does South Park.
I don't necessarily care for the method of delivery sometimes, but I do enjoy watching the mainstream crowd struggle under the scrutiny. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 
Sometimes they go over the top, but I still love it. I love social commentaries that are humorous, especially if they're animated.

My grandmother thinks I just sit around, watching cartoons that have no point.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 24, 2007)

It's hard for the older generation I think because they had to work so hard and now if you think about it our generation has it easy. SUPER easy.

Who knew that technology would go BOOM. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Another good one is King of the Hill. They are starting to join in.


----------



## Trunkmonkey (Mar 26, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_I doubt Shimmer is upset or bothered by anything anyone has ever posted about her. I know I'm not._

 
Honestly? I doubt she is BUT regardless when you or anybody else myself included steps outside the TOS of a site you're not only defying the mod of the forum but the site admin. If you were on one of my sites, and again nothing personal, I'd have banned your ip a long tim ago.

 Quote:

  Shimmer's not a grizzly. And regardless of our differing opinions on many things, I have mucho respect for her. I give her a hard time because she can take it. And while I have objected to her choice of modding in the past, it's typically on instances where she's equally guilty of doing the same. Monkey see Monkey do.  
 
Actually the grizzly reference was in general again NOT bringing Shimmer into play. She's spanked my hand before as has Hawkeye. I was making a reference to the fact that I've SEEN you deliberately spark a debate or go over the TOS then act all shocked that you got called on it. 

 Quote:

  Yeh but it's fun to discuss it. Even though we may not ever agree, you can learn a lot about a topic in the process.  
 
You can learn a lot from an adult DISCUSSION and even an adult ARGUMENT. When the personal accusations start flying the only thing I learn is that one or both of the parties are idiots.


----------



## geeko (Mar 26, 2007)

cool it down babes....

maybe i shouldn't have said something on the lines that my country banned guns and had the death sentence for anyone who fires a live shot.

I'm sorry for sparking all this debate about guns and all...


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 26, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *makeupnewbie* 

 
_cool it down babes....

maybe i shouldn't have said something on the lines that my country banned guns and had the death sentence for anyone who fires a live shot.

I'm sorry for sparking all this debate about guns and all..._

 

why? It was needed. Even though it becomes a heated debate/argument it also does allow for people express their opinions. And without it it would be very mundane. You have the right of free speech on the internet- by God use it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




But these heated debates- trust me sweetie- this is NOTHING compared to some of the other debates we have had. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I promise. So don't be sorry for sparking a dang thing.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 26, 2007)

While your post probably deserves to be a PM, if you insist...

 Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Trunkmonkey* 

 
_I've SEEN you deliberately spark a debate or go over the TOS then act all shocked that you got called on it._

 
Thats personal disagreements over what constitutes a TOS violation.  Written language is subject to interpretation, and if i've been misinterpreted I'm going to object to it.  As the author I think I have the option of clarifying how my words were meant to be said.

When someone is a mod, and decides to take part in often intensely emotional discussions, they are going to set the bar on whats seen as ok.  There have been plenty of off color remarks by plenty of people on these forums, mods included.  However, the only time they are seen as a "problem" is when they dont support the opinion a mod has.

As long as you agree with the mod, it's OK to push the line on the TOS, and might even get a "thanks" for it.  But if your opinion is different, watch out, because your post is going to be under a microscope.  Thats why you dont get very many people posting conflicting opinions, because they dont want to get on the "bad side" of a mod.  So rather than posting what they really think, they dont post at all.  Or just keep those opinions to PM's, where they can say what they really believe w/out being modded.

Sorry if I dont, "play nice" all the time.  But I believe in airing my opinion on a topic, regardless of if it's the popular one or not.  You dont learn anything from having only supporting opinions on a topic, all you do is confirm your current beliefs.  And regardless of what you think about me, I dont always disagree.  However typically posting in those threads is pointless, because a "thanks" already covers my opinion on that subject 100%.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 26, 2007)

Actually, you're incorrect. There have been times that people with supporting opinions of a moderator or administrator have still had their comment edited, as it fell outside the lines of the TOS.


You want, nay,  demand, certain liberties within this site. You _demand_ that you be allowed to say or do what you want to do, and anytime your commentary is moderated, you immediately start flinging accusations of favoritism. 
And, you want that freedom and those liberties to _only apply_ to you. You don't want anyone else exercising those same liberties you demand to indulge. 

There's no "grey area". Either something is, or it isn't, within the grounds of the Terms of Service on the site.  Regardless of whether you're posting a popular opinion or not, the rule are still applicable to you, but when they're enforced, you start sreaming 'prejudice' and 'freeforall' and 'oppression' and 'censorship'.

Censorship doesn't exist on a privately owned website. The site's owners/administrators get to decide what content stays and what content goes.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 26, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Actually, you're incorrect. There have been times that people with supporting opinions of a moderator or administrator have still had their comment edited, as it fell outside the lines of the TOS._

 
No statement is 100% correct, 100% of the time.

I'd expect a blatent violation to get modded, regardless of opinion.  It's the, "on the line" comments that I was refering too.


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 26, 2007)

Unfortunately for you, your opinion of  what is or is not over the line, or on the line, isn't ultimately the deciding opinion. You're not the one tasked with moderating the forums and interpreting the site's rules. 
The site doesn't take on moderators based on member vote, the site determines who will best represent the interests of the site, and in doing so, chooses people based on certain criteria.


----------



## Trunkmonkey (Mar 26, 2007)

RaeRae

Yes but you're not on the staff so you don't get to decide the interpretation of the TOS do you?  I stand by my previous statements.  If you acted on any of my boards as I've seen you act here you'd be history.  And again this isn't personal.  I could give two shits about what you do on here but I'm pointing it out that you act in a certain manner sometimes then recoil at the reaction.  

Being a mod or an admin sometimes comes with a do as I say not as I do mentality.  Everyone can slip up that doesn't 'set the bar'.  I back my mods 100% but I do let them know behind the scenes that they screwed up and I don't want recurrence of it.  I've fired more than one and will probably have to fire more in the future.'

I have a question for you and I'm being totally serious.   Have you ever modded a very active site?  It's like being a target all of the time.  No matter what you do or do not do half of the people in the forum will be angry with or take issue with your actions / decisions.  

Anyway... As I stated earlier you can't change my mind and it's obvious that I can't change yours I just thought that a little outside observation MIGHT be in order.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 26, 2007)

raerae you must remember you are not the only one to ever get modded.

Your lucky. At least you get an explanation. When I get modded my posts go Poof. They are nowhere to be found. 

 Quote:

  As long as you agree with the mod, it's OK to push the line on the TOS, and might even get a "thanks" for it. But if your opinion is different, watch out, because your post is going to be under a microscope. Thats why you dont get very many people posting conflicting opinions, because they dont want to get on the "bad side" of a mod. So rather than posting what they really think, they dont post at all. Or just keep those opinions to PM's, where they can say what they really believe w/out being modded.  
 
and sweetie I gotta say you are really sounding like you believe there is some conspiracy going on. 

There have been many many times with mods that I have disagreed and I told them that. But I think it's really how you do it. I mean you can't just make a sly little "snotty" (forgive the term but its the only one i can think of right now) remark and expect that its ok. *shrugs*

But on that note- lets try not to turn this into a pick on raerae thread. I don't think it is necessary, or useful to pick on one member of the community even if we do vehemantly disagree on the topic at hand.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 26, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Shimmer* 

 
_Unfortunately for you, your opinion of  what is or is not over the line, or on the line, isn't ultimately the deciding opinion. You're not the one tasked with moderating the forums and interpreting the site's rules. 
The site doesn't take on moderators based on member vote, the site determines who will best represent the interests of the site, and in doing so, chooses people based on certain criteria._

 
If your interested in my reply PM me.  But this is getting into an area where I'm not interested in airing out my opinion publicly, as it's not appropriate.

I will however say that the mod on this site typically do a fantastic job in the majority of situations.  As thankless of a job as it is.


----------



## Trunkmonkey (Mar 26, 2007)

no I definately don't want to pick on raerae I merely wanted to point something out.. 







  Rae?


----------



## Shimmer (Mar 26, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_If your interested in my reply PM me.  But this is getting into an area where I'm not interested in airing out my opinion publicly, as it's not appropriate.

I will however say that the mod on this site typically do a fantastic job in the majority of situations.  As thankless of a job as it is._

 
You are, as always, welcome to PM me anytime with any questions or concerns.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 26, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Hawkeye* 

 
_raerae you must remember you are not the only one to ever get modded._

 
Never said I was

 Quote:

  Your lucky. At least you get an explanation.  
 
Perhaps thats something the mods could start doing to everyone.  If your going to delete a post, a reason why is probably a good idea.  PM if necessary.


----------



## hyperRealGurl (Mar 26, 2007)

This was taken straight from FAQ

 Quote:

 *We reserve all rights to remove, modify or move posts at our discretion and without explanation*. If you have any questions about guidelines, rules, etc listed in this post please contact one of the staff members or an Administrator.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 26, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Trunkmonkey* 

 
_no I definately don't want to pick on raerae I merely wanted to point something out.._

 
Realistically I didn't even know I was being picked on.  I dont tend to take much personally. <shrug>


----------



## Raerae (Mar 26, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *hyperRealGurl* 

 
_This was taken straight from FAQ_

 
I know it's there lol...  I've read that TOS plenty.

Speaking generally:

I was merely pointing out that _maybe_ people would better understand WHY they are being modded, if the person modding them provided an explanation.

I dont believe most people set out to break the TOS.  So when they get modded, and dont get an explanation, it's possible they may repeat the offending remarks again, since they dont know why they were modded.  And simply quoting the TOS doesn't really help, as it's not written very explicitly and is subject to interpretation.  I've refered to that style of modding in the past as, "Mommy Modding" for a reason.  "Because I said so", doesn't help people avoid future violations.  Or help them understand and accept being modded.

Not to mention if a post is simply deleted and the person who wrote the post doesn't go back to that post ever again, they wont even know they were moderated.  I know I've found posts of mine that were moderated weeks prior, and I didn't even know it, because I forgot about the thread, and I was never PM'd that I was modded.  And at that point, I dont even remember what I posted, so I have no idea what I was even modded for.


----------



## Raerae (Mar 26, 2007)

Oh and nice Sig pic...  Thats a great one for a mod.


----------



## hyperRealGurl (Mar 26, 2007)

Thanks i rather like it myself
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  thought it was funny when i ran acrossed it on the net... reminds me of something my dad would say.. hrmmm not sure if its the whole military dude or the comment he is saying holding a nice cup of Joe.


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 26, 2007)

Because this is a privately owned site i'm sure the administratiors can tell the mods how they want things done. And sometimes there are things best to be PM'd about or asked about and sometimes it is a very clear violation of the TOS so they really don't need to put anything there. 

Theres no need to attack hyper because you don't like her sig.


----------



## hyperRealGurl (Mar 26, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_I know it's there lol...  I've read that TOS plenty.

Speaking generally:

I was merely pointing out that maybe people would better understand WHY they are being modded, if the person modding them provided an explanation.

I dont believe most people set out to break the TOS.  So when they get modded, and dont get an explanation, it's possible they may repeat the offending remarks again, since they dont know why they were modded.  And simply quoting the TOS doesn't really help, as it's not written very explicitly and is subject to interpretation.  I've refered to that style of modding in the past as, "Mommy Modding" for a reason.  "Because I said so", doesn't help people avoid future violations.  Or help them understand and accept being modded.

Not to mention if a post is simply deleted and the person who wrote the post doesn't go back to that post ever again, they wont even know they were moderated.  I know I've found posts of mine that were moderated weeks prior, and I didn't even know it, because I forgot about the thread, and I was never PM'd that I was modded.  And at that point, I dont even remember what I posted, so I have no idea what I was even modded for._

 
 honestly Rae... Mods do at times PM members.." why the post either has been deleted or edited"..  i dont feel like we are here to hang and dry members.  i might be a good thing to Pm members why things have been moved or edited.. Ive found myself doing this plenty.  Its just that sometimes we cant get to everyone


----------



## little teaser (Mar 26, 2007)

glad to know im not the only one geting rocks thrown at them today..


----------



## *Stargazer* (Mar 26, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_I know it's there lol...  I've read that TOS plenty.

Speaking generally:

I was merely pointing out that maybe people would better understand WHY they are being modded, if the person modding them provided an explanation.

I dont believe most people set out to break the TOS.  So when they get modded, and dont get an explanation, it's possible they may repeat the offending remarks again, since they dont know why they were modded.  And simply quoting the TOS doesn't really help, as it's not written very explicitly and is subject to interpretation.  I've refered to that style of modding in the past as, "Mommy Modding" for a reason.  "Because I said so", doesn't help people avoid future violations.  Or help them understand and accept being modded.

Not to mention if a post is simply deleted and the person who wrote the post doesn't go back to that post ever again, they wont even know they were moderated.  I know I've found posts of mine that were moderated weeks prior, and I didn't even know it, because I forgot about the thread, and I was never PM'd that I was modded.  And at that point, I dont even remember what I posted, so I have no idea what I was even modded for._

 
I've been reading this and remaining quiet cause I really don't have much to say about what this post has turned into, but I do agree with RaeRae here. 

While, I completely respect the TOS of this site and understand the need for rules and regulations, I do think that it would be problematic to slap someone's hand and not tell them why. They may honestly not know exactly what it was they said that was deemed against TOS and may repeat it later. And a repeat offense might get them in more trouble. So while moderators of any and all private sites are well within their rights to moderate at will, sometimes a gentle explanation might be helpful to the offender, particularly if they don't have a history of posting inflammatory, against TOS remarks and running, KWIM?

I think most of the time people probably do get an explanation and if they don't, I'd be surprised if they requested one and got told to "shove off."

Either way, moderating can be a crap job as I know from personal experience, so cheers to the mods for the great job they do when we dissolve into our frequent poop-flinging debates


----------



## Raerae (Mar 26, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Hawkeye* 

 
_Theres no need to attack hyper because you don't like her sig._

 
Who says I dont like it?


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 26, 2007)

Who says you do? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




BTW I do agree that there be some explanation on modded topics. I have many posts that are out in oblivion and they were damn good posts too


----------



## Raerae (Mar 26, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *hyperRealGurl* 

 
_honestly Rae... Mods do at times PM members.." why the post either has been deleted or edited"..  i dont feel like we are here to hang and dry members.  i might be a good thing to Pm members why things have been moved or edited.. Ive found myself doing this plenty.  Its just that sometimes we cant get to everyone_

 
I think your overstating the tone of my post.  I was merely making an observation, not raising hell about it ;p


----------



## hyperRealGurl (Mar 26, 2007)

its okay u guys
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 what i might find funny.. others might not.. but if u was offend by it Raerae..  : I hope not
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 then i will say "Sorry


----------



## hyperRealGurl (Mar 26, 2007)

Quote:

   Originally Posted by *Raerae* 

 
_I think your overstating the tone of my post.  I was merely making an observation, not raising hell about it ;p_

 
Ahh ic


----------



## Janice (Mar 26, 2007)

Staff does what needs to be done to keep the site orderly and well maintained. Please keep suggestions for improvement in the proper area (suggestions forum), or as requested in the TOS in a PM directly to the staff member or administration. This is the only way that I can reliably track and resolve complaints.

Rae - We've gone over this many times. This isn't productive, and quite frankly I'm getting tired of you publically dragging staff through the mud on just about every occasion you get. The staff does an EXCELLENT job of keeping the forum clean and well maintained. As Trunk Monkey mentioned previously, staff is modeling the sites' administration when decisions are made. (#1)It is extremely hard find quality people to staff a site AND (#2)whom model and share your administrative beliefs. I count on them (staff) to keep the site functioning when, increasingly, I am unable to be here. 

Quite frankly you are disparaging staff members, which I won't tolerate. I'm a liberal and sympathetic admin, but I will put my foot down and tell you this is a last warning. If in the future you have a gripe with the staff, take it up via PM with an administrator (myself, dawn aka holstrom4, or nina aka juneplum).


----------



## Hawkeye (Mar 26, 2007)

We got to page 12 so guess what that means????????????

My Famous Cat picture: 

BUT FIRST: 
Watch out for this guy- he may be coming to knock on your door pretty soon. If he does please send him to my house 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 hehehehe *dirty thoughts*






and now to our main presentation:


----------

